By way of elements..beings unite. (SN 14:14- 14:29)

Exploring the Dhamma, as understood from the perspective of the ancient Pali commentaries.
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phil
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By way of elements..beings unite. (SN 14:14- 14:29)

Post by phil »

Hello all

I came across an intetesting series of connected discourses that I've never come across before, A kind of birds of a feather flock together in Dhamma terms.
If you have the SN anthology please have a look, I doubt they are on access to insight, rather minor, but interesting.
What do you make of the " by way of elements" this kind and that kind of beings come together and unite.? It seems to me it is by the way of elements that anything happens whether it is an association of people of similar disposition or not. The commentarial notes don't make it any clearer. The introduction to this samyutta says that element is used here to mean "personal disposition." But hard to understand why. I would say the element in question is wisdom or lack of it, but technically speaking wisdom isn't an element (dhatu) is it? I guess dhatu has a very wide ranging meaning, like dhamma.

Leaving aside this technical point the important message of the suttas in this series is about associating with suitable people, with a hint that it is beyond our control in a sense who we associate with because of our accumulated tendencies. The fact that we are presently here associating with people who share an interest in the Dhamma is not to be taken lightly it is a kind of rare blessing that we share this disposition. Hard to remember that sometimes... :smile:
Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)
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tiltbillings
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Re: By way of elements..beings unite. (SN 14:14- 14:29)

Post by tiltbillings »

phil wrote: I guess dhatu has a very wide ranging meaning, like dhamma.
It is, indeed.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
SarathW
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Re: By way of elements..beings unite. (SN 14:14- 14:29)

Post by SarathW »

1. At one time the Blessed One was living in the monastery offered by Anàthapiõóika in Jeta's grove in Sàvatthã.

2. ßBhikkhus, beings get together and agree according to the elements. Those with inferior inclinations get together and agree with others of inferior inclinations and those with virtuous inclinations get together and agree with others of virtuous inclinations.

3. ßBhikkhus, even in the past beings got together and agreed according to the elements. Those with inferior inclinations got together and agreed with others of inferior inclinations and those with virtuous inclinations got together and agreed with others of virtuous inclinations.

4. ßBhikkhus, even in the future beings will get together and agree according to the elements. Those with inferior inclinations will get together and agree with others of inferior inclinations and those with virtuous inclinations will get together and agree with others of virtuous inclinations.

5. ßBhikkhus, even at present beings get together and agree according to the elements. Those with inferior inclinations get together and agree with others of inferior inclinations and those with virtuous inclinations get together and agree with others of virtuous inclinations.

http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pit ... ggo-e.html
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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phil
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Re: By way of elements..beings unite. (SN 14:14- 14:29)

Post by phil »

SarathW wrote:1. At one time the Blessed One was living in the monastery offered by Anàthapiõóika in Jeta's grove in Sàvatthã.

2. ßBhikkhus, beings get together and agree according to the elements. Those with inferior inclinations get together and agree with others of inferior inclinations and those with virtuous inclinations get together and agree with others of virtuous inclinations.

3. ßBhikkhus, even in the past beings got together and agreed according to the elements. Those with inferior inclinations got together and agreed with others of inferior inclinations and those with virtuous inclinations got together and agreed with others of virtuous inclinations.

4. ßBhikkhus, even in the future beings will get together and agree according to the elements. Those with inferior inclinations will get together and agree with others of inferior inclinations and those with virtuous inclinations will get together and agree with others of virtuous inclinations.


5. ßBhikkhus, even at present beings get together and agree according to the elements. Those with inferior inclinations get together and agree with others of inferior inclinations and those with virtuous inclinations get together and agree with others of virtuous inclinations.

http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pit ... ggo-e.html
Thanks SarnathW, tilt.
I see one of the suttas in the series contains this: "just as milk comes together and unites with milk, oil with oil, honey with honey and molasses with molasses so too it is by way of elements that beings come together and unite, those of a good
disposition come together and unite with those of a good disposition" and so on. (Other types that are mentioned include those lacking faith, those who are shameless, those who destroy life, those who engage in sexual misconduct and so on many other types according to different categories, all of them coming together and uniting by way of elements.) In other words birds of a feather flock together so nothing really surprising here, and the use of the word elements is just because dhatu is a word that is used in a variety of ways.

Phil
Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)
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tiltbillings
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Re: By way of elements..beings unite. (SN 14:14- 14:29)

Post by tiltbillings »

phil wrote: the use of the word elements is just because dhatu is a word that is used in a variety of ways.
"Element" for dhatu probably is not the best translation.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Spiny Norman
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Re: By way of elements..beings unite. (SN 14:14- 14:29)

Post by Spiny Norman »

phil wrote: What do you make of the " by way of elements" this kind and that kind of beings come together and unite.? It seems to me it is by the way of elements that anything happens whether it is an association of people of similar disposition or not. The commentarial notes don't make it any clearer. The introduction to this samyutta says that element is used here to mean "personal disposition."
In Bhikkhu Bodhi's SN translation he says in the notes that "element" here means "inclination". So in context it looks like an element of character or personality, like today we might talk about somebody having a "good side" to their character.

So "beings get together and agree according to the elements" means like attracting like, the virtuous being drawn to the virtuous and the inferior being drawn to the inferior.
Last edited by Spiny Norman on Wed Sep 10, 2014 8:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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gavesako
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Re: By way of elements..beings unite. (SN 14:14- 14:29)

Post by gavesako »

Ven. Thanissaro translates "dhatu" as property because it has a wider application than just the four material elements. Consciousness is one of the six dhatus, or basic properties. Also such qualities as beauty (subha) and sensuality (kama) are called dhatu.
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

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SarathW
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Re: By way of elements..beings unite. (SN 14:14- 14:29)

Post by SarathW »

What is Nibbana Dhatu?
Can someone give me Sutta reference?
Thanks
:reading:
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Re: By way of elements..beings unite. (SN 14:14- 14:29)

Post by Spiny Norman »

gavesako wrote:Ven. Thanissaro translates "dhatu" as property because it has a wider application than just the four material elements.
We experience the four material elements by their properties, so "property" would seem to work quite well.
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Re: By way of elements..beings unite. (SN 14:14- 14:29)

Post by Mkoll »

tiltbillings wrote:
phil wrote: the use of the word elements is just because dhatu is a word that is used in a variety of ways.
"Element" for dhatu probably is not the best translation.
How would you translate it? More than one term is fine.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
SarathW
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Re: By way of elements..beings unite. (SN 14:14- 14:29)

Post by SarathW »

Spiny Norman wrote:
gavesako wrote:Ven. Thanissaro translates "dhatu" as property because it has a wider application than just the four material elements.
We experience the four material elements by their properties, so "property" would seem to work quite well.
:twothumbsup:
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tiltbillings
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Re: By way of elements..beings unite. (SN 14:14- 14:29)

Post by tiltbillings »

Spiny Norman wrote:
gavesako wrote:Ven. Thanissaro translates "dhatu" as property because it has a wider application than just the four material elements.
We experience the four material elements by their properties, so "property" would seem to work quite well.
It is much better than element.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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phil
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Re: By way of elements..beings unite. (SN 14:14- 14:29)

Post by phil »

tiltbillings wrote:
Spiny Norman wrote:
gavesako wrote:Ven. Thanissaro translates "dhatu" as property because it has a wider application than just the four material elements.
We experience the four material elements by their properties, so "property" would seem to work quite well.
It is much better than element.
When it comes to dhatu meaning the ayatanas, I personally feel element is better, I like element because it gets at the way all we experience is composed of or made up of "the all" of the ayatanas. But when it is used as in these suttas, as an accumulated inclination, property certainly makes more sense.
Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)
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tiltbillings
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Re: By way of elements..beings unite. (SN 14:14- 14:29)

Post by tiltbillings »

phil wrote: When it comes to dhatu meaning the ayatanas, I personally feel element is better, I like element because it gets at the way all we experience is composed of or made up of "the all" of the ayatanas. But when it is used as in these suttas, as an accumulated inclination, property certainly makes more sense.
And it carries a suggestion of thingness. "Element" can easily be done away with, leaving us far closer to the conditioned co-produced basis of experience of the all/world.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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phil
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Re: By way of elements..beings unite. (SN 14:14- 14:29)

Post by phil »

tiltbillings wrote:
phil wrote: When it comes to dhatu meaning the ayatanas, I personally feel element is better, I like element because it gets at the way all we experience is composed of or made up of "the all" of the ayatanas. But when it is used as in these suttas, as an accumulated inclination, property certainly makes more sense.
And it carries a suggestion of thingness. "Element" can easily be done away with, leaving us far closer to the conditioned co-produced basis of experience of the all/world.
Ok thanks.

Anyways I find it interesting to reflect on why I spend time with the people I do. During certain periods in my life (and it's a periodical thing that comes back now and then) I spend time with unwise people doing unwise things, and then there is the stronger inclination to spend time with Dhamma friends ( only online, alas, except for rare meetings) so it's hard to see that there is one disposition but rather shifting factors that predominate at different times in line with the arising of defilements and the kusala factors that do or don't counter them...
Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)
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