noble right concentration

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noble right concentration

Postby Gena1480 » Tue Apr 02, 2013 12:00 am

The Blessed One said: "Now what, monks, is noble right concentration with its supports & requisite conditions?
Any singleness of mind equipped with these seven factors
—right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, & right mindfulness
— is called noble right concentration with its supports & requisite conditions.

Maha-cattarisaka Sutta: The Great Forty
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

it is interesting here that the noble right concentration
is described different then the other seven factor
it does not describe noble right concentration
like other seven factors
where they are described as two of factor (mundane and supramandane,) one siding with merit.
and the other is transcendent.
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Re: noble right concentration

Postby Gena1480 » Tue Apr 02, 2013 1:01 am

it's interesting that the right view is forerunner.
out of seven path factors that support the noble right concentration.
right view is the front runner.

"Of those, right view is the forerunner.
And how is right view the forerunner?
One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view.
This is one's right view.
And what is wrong view?
'There is nothing given, nothing offered, nothing sacrificed.
There is no fruit or result of good or bad actions.
There is no this world, no next world, no mother, no father, no spontaneously reborn beings; no brahmans or contemplatives who,
faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is wrong view.
this is the right view according to the sutta.
and later it goes into detail.
and explains two types of right view.

"And what is right view? Right view, I tell you, is of two sorts:
There is right view with effluents [asava], siding with merit, resulting in the acquisitions [of becoming];
and there is noble right view, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path.
so there is a right view with effluents (mental fermentation) with merit, resulting in greed
so for example from the sutta one type of wrong livelihood is getting gain with gain
i(we) can have right view but but no discernment. regarding this gain with gain since there is no discernment, one is trying to understand this, and this trying leads to further becoming.

"And what is the right view that is without effluents,
transcendent, a factor of the path?
The discernment, the faculty of discernment, the strength of discernment, analysis of qualities as a factor for Awakening,
the path factor of right view of one developing the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is free from effluents, who is fully possessed of the noble path.
This is the right view that is without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path.
according to this from sutta
right view without effluents (a factor of the path)
The discernment of the factor of the path
the faculty of discernment
the strength of discernment
analysis of qualities as factor for Awakening (if someone know what that is )i only know them as described in mindfulness of breathing sutta.
so the one who is developing the noble path, there is right view as noble right factor, he mind is noble and free from effluents
now at the last sentence it says that, who is fully posses of noble path( does that mean that one is fully possessed of all noble factors, which is the noble path)

and at the end of right view.
it say how one enters the right view
that is one right effort
remaining in right view is right mindfulness.

"One tries to abandon wrong view & to enter into right view: This is one's right effort.
One is mindful to abandon wrong view & to enter & remain in right view: This is one's right mindfulness.
Thus these three qualities — right view, right effort, & right mindfulness — run & circle around right view.
these 3 run in circle since the sutta does not called them as noble, that means they worked like these in both cases mundane or transcendent.
does anybody wants to comment.
metta,karuna,mudita,uppekkha
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Re: noble right concentration

Postby Zom » Tue Apr 02, 2013 9:00 am

Pali version of this sutta is a bit... dubious.
Read this: http://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg. ... risaka.pdf
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Re: noble right concentration

Postby manas » Tue Apr 02, 2013 9:35 am

Zom wrote:Pali version of this sutta is a bit... dubious.
Read this: http://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg. ... risaka.pdf


Ven. Anālayo wrote:In fact, the terms employed to define the supramundane path-factors of right intention, right speech, right action and right livelihood are precisely the same as those used in the Vibhaṅga of the Pāli Abhidhammapiṭaka. Notably, the Vibhaṅga uses these terms in its exposition of the path-factors according to the specific method of the Abhidharma, diferent from the terms the same work uses when it analyses these path-factors according to the method of the discourses.12 That is, from the viewpoint of the Vibhaṅga this type of terminology is distinctly Abhidharmic, difering from the mode of exposition found in the discourses.
Moreover, the treatment of the path-factors from a supramundane viewpoint in the Mahācattārīsaka-sutta­qualifies the mundane wholesome path-factors as “with influx” and as “ripening in attachment”.13 Yet, the definitions given in the Mahācattārīsaka-sutta for the path-factors of mundane right intention, right speech, right action and right livelihood recur in other discourses as part of the standard definition of the noble eightfold path that leads to the eradication of dukkha.14 Thus, what according to other discourses leads to the eradication of dukkha, in the Mahāc­attārīsaka-sutta is presented as something that ripens in attachment and is associated with the influxes.


Zom,

thank you very much for posting this link. Very interesting - and important for the correct understanding of the Doctrine, it would seem.

:anjali:
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Re: noble right concentration

Postby Ron-The-Elder » Tue Apr 02, 2013 9:50 am

Hi, Zom.

Thank you for the pdf. How do you locate suttas (as you did) in English from this resource? A link would be much appreciated. Also, I noted a "fellowship" application. May anyone apply?

Thanks,

Ron :anjali:
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A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
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Re: noble right concentration

Postby Gena1480 » Tue Apr 02, 2013 8:12 pm

Zom
i read some of this stuff from your link
and
i have 100 percent confidence that it was spoken by the Buddha.
and i will continue to study it and take it as my authority of the teachings
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Re: noble right concentration

Postby Gena1480 » Tue Apr 02, 2013 8:45 pm

this is what i understand.
that stream entry is free from fermentation
it is not only Arahant who is free from fermentation
Sabbasava Sutta: Discourse on All Āsavas
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .bpit.html
anyway this translation is different
here is another link
viewtopic.php?f=25&t=1741
all the fermentation sutta
here it explains that stream entry has abandon effluents(fermentation) by seeing.(he is free from effluents)
"And what are the ideas fit for attention that he does attend to? Whatever ideas such that, when he attends to them, the unarisen fermentation of sensuality does not arise in him, and the arisen fermentation of sensuality is abandoned; the unarisen fermentation of becoming does not arise in him, and the arisen fermentation of becoming is abandoned; the unarisen fermentation of ignorance does not arise in him, and the arisen fermentation of ignorance is abandoned. These are the ideas fit for attention that he does attend to. Through his not attending to ideas unfit for attention and through his attending to ideas fit for attention, unarisen fermentations do not arise in him, and arisen fermentations are abandoned.

"He attends appropriately, This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress. As he attends appropriately in this way, three fetters are abandoned in him: identity-view, doubt, and grasping at precepts & practices. These are called the fermentations to be abandoned by seeing.
again it is not only Arahant who is free from effluents.

this sutta supports the Great forty sutta.
it supports the supra mundane view/noble mind/analysis of factor/and fully posses of the path

And what is the right view that is without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path? The discernment, the faculty of discernment, the strength of discernment, analysis of qualities as a factor for Awakening, the path factor of right view of one developing the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is free from effluents, who is fully possessed of the noble path. This is the right view that is without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path.

metta,karuna,mudita,uppekkha
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Re: noble right concentration

Postby manas » Tue Apr 02, 2013 11:23 pm

Gena,

I was, and still am, inspired and informed by this sutta also. No-one here is claiming that the entire sutta is in doubt as authentic, but only a few details in it, which were possibly added at a later stage. As for the main body of it, it's awesome, of course!

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Re: noble right concentration

Postby Zom » Wed Apr 03, 2013 2:45 pm

Thank you for the pdf. How do you locate suttas (as you did) in English from this resource?


I do not. I just stuck on this paper some time ago somewhere and downloaded it. Then it was easy to find it in the net, when you know the heading.

i read some of this stuff from your link
and
i have 100 percent confidence that it was spoken by the Buddha.


I'd say that tibetan and chinese parallels of MN 117 (with no later abhidhammic insertions) are more likely to be authentic and spoken by the Buddha .)

Btw, this may be interesting for you to listen to: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9De_Y3Qe ... r_embedded
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Re: noble right concentration

Postby Gena1480 » Thu Apr 04, 2013 1:13 pm

zom what exactly do you find Abhidhammic
about the sutta
is it do to knowledge of Abidhamma
that you see similarities
please point to you doubt point.
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Re: noble right concentration

Postby Gena1480 » Thu Apr 04, 2013 3:28 pm

zom i have read
the other versions
and i'm not convinced
that the other versions are better
i'm not convinced that this is Abidhammic
i'm not here to compare schools
and make a conclusion
one should investigate
the the Great forty
path further.

i have nothing against if you want to study the other schools.
metta,karuna,mudita,uppekkha.
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Re: noble right concentration

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Apr 05, 2013 3:14 am

Greetings,

Gena1480 wrote:i'm not convinced that this is Abidhammic

Neither am I, as I explained previously here: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=14592#p212679

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: noble right concentration

Postby Gena1480 » Wed Apr 10, 2013 4:05 am

Hello Retrofuturist
did you read the Great forty
4)right action with out effluents
"And what is the right action that is without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path? The abstaining, desisting, abstinence, avoidance of the three forms of bodily misconduct of one developing the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is without effluents, who is fully possessed of the noble path. This is the right action that is without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path.
5)right livelihood with out effluents
"And what is the right livelihood that is without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path? The abstaining, desisting, abstinence, avoidance of wrong livelihood of one developing the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is without effluents, who is fully possessed of the noble path. This is the right livelihood that is without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path.

Hello Retrofuturist both right action and right livelihood have similar things
abstaining,desisting,abstinence.
is there any other sutta describing these two
May all beings be free from stress, pain, danger
May all beings not be deprived of the good fortune they attain.
May all beings be free from oppression
What ever they do for good or for evil to that they will fall heir.
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Re: noble right concentration

Postby Gena1480 » Tue Apr 16, 2013 3:52 am

does anybody
see that the supramundane
path factor is equal to multiplisity mundane factors
this definitly later addition
this is not Buddha teaching
Buddha did not teach math
Buddha teaching is depending origination
with the arising of right view their is arising of right resolve
and the rest of the path
metta
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Re: noble right concentration

Postby Gena1480 » Tue Apr 16, 2013 3:57 am

i meant supra mundane factor
equals to mulitplycity of supra mundane factors
the Budddha did not teach math
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