The causes for wisdom

[binocular]

There is a person who appears to be proposing to know the one and only truth about what the Buddha really taught and meant. And this person sometimes has a negative attitude toward others.

I point out that this sort of thing is to be expected in this world. That's just how it is. There is no use to get upset over it.

[tiltbillings]

There is a person who appears to be proposing to know the one and only truth about what the Buddha really taught and meant. And this person sometimes has a negative attitude toward others.

I point out that this sort of thing is to be expected in this world. That's just how it is. There is no use to get upset over it.

Was I upset? The last time I checked (10 seconds ago) I have not been; however, that does not mean that such business should not be responed to.

[Alex123]

[1] "Of those, right view is the forerunner. And how is right view the forerunner? One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view. And what is wrong view?

So what? One learns conceptually what is path and what is not, and then one follows it.

What is, for you, the meaning of sukha vipassana?

Some people don't have that much obscurations, so their samādhi does not have to be as strong. If it works for you, then great. I have lots of defilements.

[binocular]

There is a person who appears to be proposing to know the one and only truth about what the Buddha really taught and meant. And this person sometimes has a negative attitude toward others.

I point out that this sort of thing is to be expected in this world. That's just how it is. There is no use to get upset over it.

Was I upset? The last time I checked (10 seconds ago) I have not been; however, that does not mean that such business should not be responed to.

What business should not be or should be responded to?

[tiltbillings]

There is a person who appears to be proposing to know the one and only truth about what the Buddha really taught and meant. And this person sometimes has a negative attitude toward others.

I point out that this sort of thing is to be expected in this world. That's just how it is. There is no use to get upset over it.

Was I upset? The last time I checked (10 seconds ago) I have not been; however, that does not mean that such business should not be responed to.

What business should not be or should be responded to?

Start a new thread.

[kirk5a]

Greetings,

As soon as there's idea of a method, it is the idea of someone who can (attend to the realities as they arise).

I'm not sure whether this is an "English as a second language" issue, or whether this is actually what Sujin teaches, but that is just plain stupid.

That's like saying, "as soon there's idea of a Noble Eightfold Path, it is the idea of someone who can (follow that path)"

I'm glad the Buddha didn't suffer from puggalaphobia...

Metta,
Retro.

Ha! "puggalaphobia." Who knows, maybe the Puggalavadins were reacting to puggalaphobia. Not that they didn't get carried away also. But you're right, the Buddha cleary did not make these artificial attempts to sanitize his teachings of all personal speech.

[dhamma follower]

When I follow up on the explanation given in the Visuddhimagga for the manner of practice for the "sukkha-vipassaka" what I find is instructions to go on solitary retreat, direct attention to the various aspects of the body, discern the elements, make effort and develop concentration.

The part on elements is in the Concentration Chapter, I don't think it represents the manner of practice for the dry insight worker as a whole. The chapter on Understanding reflects a larger spectrum of objects for insights: four primaries, 18 elements, 12 bases, 5 aggregates. And apart from the going to a secluded place, I don't see anything like a formal practice in the description. It's rather all about a work of understanding.

Post unfinished, please replace by the next one

[tiltbillings]

When I follow up on the explanation given in the Visuddhimagga for the manner of practice for the "sukkha-vipassaka" what I find is instructions to go on solitary retreat, direct attention to the various aspects of the body, discern the elements, make effort and develop concentration.

The part on elements is in the Concentration Chapter, I don't think it represents the manner of practice for the dry insight worker as a whole. The chapter on Understanding reflects a larger spectrum of objects for insights: four primaries, 18 elements, 12 bases, 5 aggregates. And apart from the going to a secluded place, I don't see anything like a formal practice in the description. It's rather all about a work of understanding.

Part of the problem here is that your conception of "formal" practice is a straw-man that poorly reflects the real world.

[dhamma follower]

When I follow up on the explanation given in the Visuddhimagga for the manner of practice for the "sukkha-vipassaka" what I find is instructions to go on solitary retreat, direct attention to the various aspects of the body, discern the elements, make effort and develop concentration.

The part on elements is in the Concentration Chapter, I don't think it represents the manner of practice for the dry insight worker as a whole. The chapter on Understanding reflects a larger spectrum of objects for insights: four primaries, 18 elements, 12 bases, 5 aggregates. And apart from the going to a secluded place, I don't see anything like a formal practice in the description on the development of concentration based on four elements. It's rather all about a work of understanding.

IMHO, because of the core of both developments (samatha and vipassana) is understanding (of different kinds), I don't think we should imitate the behavior of what is described in the texts. Rather i would assess my level of understanding first. I can imagine very well that when understanding has been developed to a certain stage, living in seclusion will seem to be the most natural thing to do. And when the danger of sense pleasure has really been seen by wisdom, nothing will be better than a forest-gone recluse life devoting to the escape from sense pleasure.

“Monks, these five are forest-gone. What five?
“One is forest-gone out of folly and blindness; one out of evil desires and longings;
one foolish and mind-tossed; one at the thought: ”It is praised by Buddhas and
their disciples”; and one is forest-gone just because his wants are little, just for
contentment, just to mark (his own faults) 8
, just for seclusion, just because it is
the very thing 9
.
“Verily, monks, of these five who have gone to the forest, he who has gone just
because his wants are little, for contentment, to mark (his own faults), for
seclusion, just because it is the very thing-- he of the five is topmost, best,
foremost, highest, elect.
“Monks, just as from the cow comes milk, from milk cream, from cream butter,
from butter ghee, from ghee the skim of ghee which is reckoned topmost; even so,
monks, of these five forest-gone, he who has gone just because his wants are little,
for contentment, to mark (his own faults), for seclusion, and just because it is the
very thing–he of the five is topmost, best, foremost, highest, elect.”

Gradual sayings, Part III, Ch XIX, 181- Forest gone

[dhamma follower]

And I have given you quotes from at least two other teachers (and you've added Sayadaw T yourself) who say essentially the same thing. So it's not something unique to Ajahn Sujin. How could it be, when it's the teaching of the Buddha? Of course, anyone can say that they are not operating with the "idea of someone who can". Whether they really are another matter.


Mike

I would not say that Sayadaw U Tejaniya is teaching the same thing. He is saying many things similar and I believe his understanding of the Dhamma will agree with AS's.

I can't comment on the others because I don't know them well enough. But it's good to know that some teachers are moving in that direction too.

Brgds,
D.F

[dhamma follower]

Greetings,

As soon as there's idea of a method, it is the idea of someone who can (attend to the realities as they arise).

I'm not sure whether this is an "English as a second language" issue, or whether this is actually what Sujin teaches, but that is just plain stupid.

That's like saying, "as soon there's idea of a Noble Eightfold Path, it is the idea of someone who can (follow that path)"

I'm glad the Buddha didn't suffer from puggalaphobia...

Metta,
Retro.

Dear Retro,

A third option is :may be an issue of comprehension. Some people might not find that so plain stupid

When I was 18 and heard about the Four Noble Truth for the first time, I thought: "it's a silly stuff".

Puggalaphobia? Nice word, but may be Ditthiphobia will be a more proper one in this case.

Brgds,

D.F

[tiltbillings]

Greetings,

As soon as there's idea of a method, it is the idea of someone who can (attend to the realities as they arise).

I'm not sure whether this is an "English as a second language" issue, or whether this is actually what Sujin teaches, but that is just plain stupid.

That's like saying, "as soon there's idea of a Noble Eightfold Path, it is the idea of someone who can (follow that path)"

I'm glad the Buddha didn't suffer from puggalaphobia...

Metta,
Retro.

Dear Retro,

A third option is :may be an issue of comprehension. Some people might not find that so plain stupid

When I was 18 and heard about the Four Noble Truth for the first time, I thought: "it's a silly stuff".

Puggalaphobia? Nice word, but may be Ditthiphobia will be a more proper one in this case.

You have totally missed the point here. The suttas make it quite plainly clear that one can use conventional language to speak accurately and asutely about the Dhamma. Just because one uses impersonal abhidhamma-speak does not mean one better understands the Dhamma than one who uses sutta language. What we have seen displayed with this Sujin abhidhamma-speak in a muddling of the Dhamma, making it look like a form of hard determinism.

"As soon as there's idea of a method, it is the idea of someone who can (attend to the realities as they arise)." You are seriously missing something here.

[kirk5a]

When I follow up on the explanation given in the Visuddhimagga for the manner of practice for the "sukkha-vipassaka" what I find is instructions to go on solitary retreat, direct attention to the various aspects of the body, discern the elements, make effort and develop concentration.

The part on elements is in the Concentration Chapter, I don't think it represents the manner of practice for the dry insight worker as a whole. The chapter on Understanding reflects a larger spectrum of objects for insights: four primaries, 18 elements, 12 bases, 5 aggregates. And apart from the going to a secluded place, I don't see anything like a formal practice in the description on the development of concentration based on four elements. It's rather all about a work of understanding.

Yes, it's in the "concentration" chapter, and we are referred there from the "understanding" chapter. Which explicitly demonstrates that concentration, individual effort, "method," "formal practice" - these are all how the Visuddhimagga describe the practice of the "dry-insight worker."

But one whose vehicle is pure insight, or that same aforesaid one whose vehicle
is serenity, discerns the four elements in brief or in detail in one of the various ways
given in the chapter on the definition of the four elements (XI.27ff.).

Turning to that chapter, it says:

41. So firstly, one of quick understanding who wants to develop this meditation
subject should go into solitary retreat.
Then he should advert to his own entire
material body and discern the elements in brief in this way: “In this body what
is stiffenedness or harshness is the earth element, what is cohesion or fluidity25
[352] is the water element, what is maturing (ripening) or heat is the fire element,
what is distension or movement is the air element.” And he should advert and
give attention to it and review it again and again as “earth element, water
element,” that is to say, as mere elements, not a living being, and soulless.
42. As he makes effort in this way it is not long before concentration arises in
him, which is reinforced by understanding that illuminates the classification of
the elements, and which is only access and does not reach absorption because it
has states with individual essences as its object.

http://www.aimwell.org/News/news.html