The causes for wisdom

An open and inclusive investigation into Buddhism and spiritual cultivation
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robertk
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Tue Jun 02, 2015 8:35 am

Perhaps my English doesn't make sense. Let me rephrase:

Certainly someone can study Abhidhamma, say, and still seem to interpret the world through their own limited vision RATHER THAN HONESTLY CONSIDERING WHAT THE TEXTS are really trying to EXPRESS. The venerable Nyansobhano writes:
"When we read teachings contrary to our preferences and outside the realm of our usual consideration, we tend to reject them automatically. They are strange and intellectually disturbing - hence they must be wrong. This tendency, too, is quite natural; and certainly our native intelligence and worldly experience should alert us to what is outlandish and incoherent. But it is good to remember that a new or an old way of considering and dealing with life is not false just because it surprises us or contradicts our theories. A sincere seeker should compare ideas for the purpose of gaining a closer fix on truth."

- Bhikkhu Nyanasobhano, "Available Truth"

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robertk
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Wed Jun 24, 2015 6:00 am

mikenz66 wrote:Thanks, Robert. That is an interesting point.

However, reading of those passages in the Visuddhimagga (and other passages) in context, leads me to the conclusion that quite a lot of concentration is required for insight.

I guess we will continue to come to different conclusions.

:anjali:
Mike

Dear mike
I saw this today. From

Acharn cha: .."if we have enough concentration to read a book, we have enough samadhi to be liberated"

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Mr Man
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Mr Man » Wed Jun 24, 2015 6:41 am

robertk wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:Thanks, Robert. That is an interesting point.

However, reading of those passages in the Visuddhimagga (and other passages) in context, leads me to the conclusion that quite a lot of concentration is required for insight.

I guess we will continue to come to different conclusions.

:anjali:
Mike

Dear mike
I saw this today. From " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Acharn cha: .."if we have enough concentration to read a book, we have enough samadhi to be liberated"


OTP: Are you reading that book Robert? Any thoughts?

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robertk
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Wed Jun 24, 2015 6:47 am

Yes I bought it and read it.
The best parts are when they talk about difficulties they had in their buddhist lives.

I found her sections better than his and the whole book was a bit uneven in quality: overall it got me though a 5 hour flight to tokyo and there were a few gems in it..

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Mr Man
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Mr Man » Wed Jun 24, 2015 7:00 am

robertk wrote:Yes I bought it and read it.
The best parts are when they talk about difficulties they had in their buddhist lives.

I found her sections better than his and the whole book was a bit uneven in quality: overall it got me though a 5 hour flight to tokyo and there were a few gems in it..


Thanks

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robertk
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Fri Jun 26, 2015 5:38 am

this is from a post by venerable dhammanando, which is relevant to the earlier discussion about Nina's interview::


viewtopic.php?f=43&t=23933&start=20
“Human dhammas” (manussa-dhammā) means the ten wholesome courses of action. Any wholesome states that are superior to the ten wholesome courses of action are “superhuman dhammas” (uttarimanussa-dhammā). In the Vinaya Piṭaka these are defined deictically as:

“Uttarimanussadhammo” — nāma jhānaṃ vimokkho samādhi samāpatti ñāṇadassanaṃ maggabhāvanā phalasacchikiriyā kilesappahānaṃ vinīvaraṇatā cittassa suññāgāre abhirati.

A super-human state: jhāna, release, samādhi, attainment, knowledge and insight, development of the path, realisation of the fruits, abandoning the defilements, a mind without hindrances, delighting in solitude.


tiltbillings wrote:
On what basis do you claim that it is rare
?


It would appear that even the human dhammas are rare, for if they were common it would not be the case (as the suttas say it is) that the overwhelming majority of humans are headed for rebirth in the lower realms. How much rarer, then, are the superhuman dhammas.

As for the rarity of jhāna in particular:

Now, the kasiṇa preliminary work is difficult for a beginner and only one in a hundred or a thousand can do it. The arousing of the sign is difficult for one who has done the preliminary work and only one in a hundred or a thousand can do it. To extend the sign when it has arisen and to reach absorption is difficult and only one in a hundred or a thousand can do it. To tame one’s mind in the fourteen ways after reaching absorption is difficult and only one in a hundred or a thousand can do it.
(Path of Purification, ch. XII)


So if this is correct, then the jhāna-attainment rate of those who attempt samatha-bhāvanā will range from one in a million to one in a thousand million, while the jhāna-mastery rate will range from one in a hundred million to one in a trillion.

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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jun 26, 2015 6:20 am

robertk wrote:this is from a post by venerable dhammanando, which is relevant to the earlier discussion about Nina's interview::


http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 3&start=20" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
“Human dhammas” (manussa-dhammā) means the ten wholesome courses of action. Any wholesome states that are superior to the ten wholesome courses of action are “superhuman dhammas” (uttarimanussa-dhammā). In the Vinaya Piṭaka these are defined deictically as:

“Uttarimanussadhammo” — nāma jhānaṃ vimokkho samādhi samāpatti ñāṇadassanaṃ maggabhāvanā phalasacchikiriyā kilesappahānaṃ vinīvaraṇatā cittassa suññāgāre abhirati.

A super-human state: jhāna, release, samādhi, attainment, knowledge and insight, development of the path, realisation of the fruits, abandoning the defilements, a mind without hindrances, delighting in solitude.


tiltbillings wrote:
On what basis do you claim that it is rare
?


It would appear that even the human dhammas are rare, for if they were common it would not be the case (as the suttas say it is) that the overwhelming majority of humans are headed for rebirth in the lower realms. How much rarer, then, are the superhuman dhammas.

As for the rarity of jhāna in particular:

Now, the kasiṇa preliminary work is difficult for a beginner and only one in a hundred or a thousand can do it. The arousing of the sign is difficult for one who has done the preliminary work and only one in a hundred or a thousand can do it. To extend the sign when it has arisen and to reach absorption is difficult and only one in a hundred or a thousand can do it. To tame one’s mind in the fourteen ways after reaching absorption is difficult and only one in a hundred or a thousand can do it.
(Path of Purification, ch. XII)


So if this is correct, then the jhāna-attainment rate of those who attempt samatha-bhāvanā will range from one in a million to one in a thousand million, while the jhāna-mastery rate will range from one in a hundred million to one in a trillion.
Jhana is probably not as rare as is often thought to be, given that there are those who teach and experience jhana as described by the Visuddhimagga and the suttas.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam
Damned if I know.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Jun 27, 2015 7:45 am

Ajahn Jayasaro The cultivation of the conditions for the arising of wisdom:

Image
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam
Damned if I know.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Dhammanando
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Dhammanando » Sat Jun 27, 2015 8:33 am

tiltbillings wrote:Ajahn Jayasaro The cultivation of the conditions for the arising of wisdom:

Image


Do you have a more precise link? This one leads only to a Facebook group, not to any particular talk or article.
Sundɑrɑromɑ̄nɑ
Pɑli Romɑnisɑtion


sɑrɑ̄: ɑ ɑ̄ i ī u ū e o
kɑɳȶɑjɑ̄: k ƙ ɡ ɠ ŋ
tɑ̄lujɑ̄: c ƈ j j̛ ɲ
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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Jun 27, 2015 8:35 am

Dhammanando wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Ajahn Jayasaro The cultivation of the conditions for the arising of wisdom:

Image


Do you have a more precise link? This one leads only to a Facebook group, not to any particular talk or article.
It is just a posting on FB. Right now it should be right on or close to the top of the linked page. The above thingie also shows up in the photos.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam
Damned if I know.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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mikenz66
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Jun 27, 2015 9:35 am

Hi Tilt,

Do you mean this?

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Meditation is like rubbing two sticks together to make fire.

You need a lot of patience to be successful, and you need consistency and continuity.

Perhaps you start with great enthusiasm,
but that won't last.

If, when you start to feel tired or bored or discouraged,
please understand that you can't just stop for a while,
for a few days or weeks, and then just carry on.

The two sticks will be cold and you will have to start again.

So even if you only do a little everyday, never mind.
What is important is that you don't stop.

~ Ajahn Jayasaro ~


:anjali:
Mike

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robertk
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Sun Jun 28, 2015 4:43 am

image.jpg
image.jpg (458.17 KiB) Viewed 127 times


An interesting page from the book retro recommended by steven harrison

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robertk
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Sun Jun 28, 2015 5:04 am

image.jpg
image.jpg (438.25 KiB) Viewed 123 times

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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Jun 28, 2015 6:33 am

The above cuttings from Harrison's book look to be taken out of their broader contexts, and what they interestingly suggests, as presented here, is that one can fail at meditation, and drastically so. Failure at meditation does, indeed, happen, all too often. What I have seen frequently with such failures are subsequent attacks on meditation, either in a generalized manner or in terms of specific technique, as we have seen graphically illustrated in this thread. However, in going through Harrison book, which is not actually an anti-meditation screed, we do see why some of the failures happen, and we do see what he is offering as correctives.

Interestingly the OP of this thread is essentially a basis for a criticism of a meditation practice in general, but sadly as the thread unfolds, the criticism is not based upon a careful understanding of what is it criticizing.

Certainly, meditation practice, either in a generalized sense, or specific techniques can be, should be, open to criticism, but ideally these criticism need to be done from a place of actually understanding what is being criticized.

robertk wrote:
image.jpg


An interesting page from the book retro recommended by steven harrison
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam
Damned if I know.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson


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