The causes for wisdom

[tiltbillings]

It is not that sitting and watching the breath or watching bodily sensations is going to help or hinder the path, anymore than me chosing the Belly Sandwich Shop in preference to Subway. But if one believes that it is these very operations that somehow are key to satisampajanna to arise then one is in the realm of silabataparamasa.

sīlabbata-parāmāsa
and -upādāna:

'attachment (or clinging) to mere rules and ritual', is the 3rd of the 10 fetters (samyojana), and one of the 4 kinds of clinging (upādāna).

It disappears on attaining to Stream-entry (sotāpatti).

For definition, s. upādāna.

upādāna
'clinging', according to Vis.M. XVII, is an intensified degree of craving (tanhā).

The 4 kinds of clinging are:

sensuous clinging (kāmupādāna),
clinging to views (ditthupādāna),
clinging to mere rules and ritual (sīlabbatupādāna),
clinging to the personality-belief (atta-vādupādāna).
(1) "What now is the sensuous clinging? Whatever with regard to sensuous objects there exists of sensuous lust, sensuous desire, sensuous attachment, sensuous passion, sensuous deluded ness, sensuous fetters: this is called sensuous clinging.

(2) ''What is the clinging to views? 'Alms and offerings are useless; there is no fruit and result for good and bad deeds: all such view and wrong conceptions are called the clinging to views.

(3) "What is the clinging to mere rules and ritual? The holding firmly to the view that through mere rules and ritual one may reach purification: this is called the clinging to mere rules and ritual.

(4) "What is the clinging to the personality-belief? The 20 kinds of ego-views with regard to the groups of existence (s. sakkāya-ditthi): these are called the clinging to the personality-belief" (Dhs.1214-17).

This traditional fourfold division of clinging is not quite satisfactory. Besides kamupādāna we should expect either rūpupādāna and arūpupādāna, or simply bhavupādāna. Though the Anāgāmī is entirely free from the traditional 4 kinds of upādāna, he is not freed from rebirth, as he still possesses bhavupādāna. The Com. to Vis.M. XVII, in trying to get out of this dilemma, explains kāmupādāna as including here all the remaining kinds of clinging.

"Clinging' is the common rendering for u., though 'grasping' would come closer to the literal meaning of it, which is 'uptake'; s. Three Cardinal Discourses (WHEEL 17), p.19.
http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/s_ ... amaasa.htm
http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/u_v/upaadaana.htm

[tiltbillings]

A rather astounding statement here http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 60#p228510 which probably renders most of what most people here are doing as being at best problematic. But there is this:

To truly see 'rising and falling' is not dependent on anything other that deepening wisdom that can discern this.

I am guessing I would not be alone in asking you, since, according to you, what we usually think and understand as Dhamma practice is likely not of any real value, then how does one deepen wisdom?

[robertk]

A rather astounding statement here http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 60#p228510 which probably renders most of what most people here are doing as being at best problematic. But there is this:

To truly see 'rising and falling' is not dependent on anything other that deepening wisdom that can discern this.

I am guessing I would not be alone in asking you, since, accoirding to you, what we usually think and understand as Dhamma practice is likely not of any real value, then how does one deepen wisdom?

This thread has already given suttas such as the Ghosa sutta (thanks Dave)as reference.

In the Commentary to the Susima sutta by Buddhaghosa it says
Saratthappakasini (Atthakatha) :
Why is this said? For the purpose
of showing the arising of
knowledge thus even without concentration.
This is meant: "Susima, the path and fruit are not the issue of
concentration (samadhinissanda), nor the advantage brought about by
concentration (samadhi-anisamsa), nor the outcome of concentration
(samadhinipphatti). They are the issue of insight (vipassana), the
advantage brought about by insight, the outcome of insight.Therefore, whether you understand or not, first comes knowledge of
the stability of the Dhamma, afterwards knowledge of Nibbana.
Spk-pt (tika): 'Even without concentration' (vina pi samadhim): even
without
previously established (concentration) that has acquired the
characteristic of serenity (samatha-lakkhanappattam); this is said
referring to one who takes the vehicle of insight
(vipassanayanika)..."

Vipassana(insight) itself is one of the synonyms of panna wisdom- it is advanced wisdom.
I mentioned in a prior post about a virtous circle I think which would be worth looking at again.
as the suttas say "

Bhikkhus, just as the dawn is the forerunner and first indication of the rising of the sun, so is right view the forerunner and first indication of wholesome states. For one of right view, bhikkhus, right intention springs up. For one of right intention, right speech springs up. For one of right speech, right action springs up. For one of right action, right livelihood springs up. For one of right livelihood, right effort springs up. For one of right effort, right mindfulness springs up. For one of right mindfulness, right concentration springs up. For one of right concentration, right knowledge springs up. For one of right knowledge, right deliverance springs up

. Anguttara Nikaya 10:121"

[robertk]

Sammohavinodanii (Dispeller of Delusion) by Buddhaghosa, pp.138-9,

"In the description of Right View, by dukkhe ~naa.na.m ('knowledge concerning suffering) and so on are pointed out the four truths as meditation subject. Herein, the first two are process [of existence], the last two standstill. Among these the bhikkhu's laying to heart (abhiniveso) of the meditation subject is in the process, there is no laying to heart in the standstill. For the meditator works on his meditation subject by learning in from a teacher in brief thus: 'Which are the five aggregates?' and he goes over it verbally again and again. But as regards the other two truths, he does his work by hearing: 'the Truth of Cessation is agreeable, desirable, pleasing, the Truth of the Path is agreeable, desirable, pleasing.' Doing his work thus, he penetrates the four truths with a single penetration. He achieves them with a single achievement. He penetrates suffering with the penetration of full understanding, origination with the penetration of abandoning, cessation with the achievement of realisation and the path with the achievement of development. Thus for him there comes to be in the prior stage penetration by learning, questioning, hearing, remembering and comprehending in regard to two truths; and penetration; and penetration by hearing only in regard to two.



Herein, two truths are profound because of being difficult to see, and two are difficult to see on account of being profound. For the Truth of Suffering is evident once it arises because one has to say: 'Ah, the pain!' in respect of encounters with stumps and thorns, etc.; and origination is evident once it arises as desire to chew, desire to eat, and so on. But as to the penetration of their characteristics, both are profound; accordingly these are profound because of being difficult to see. But the work for seeing the other two is like extending the hand for the purpose of seizing the summit of existence, like extending the foot for the purpose of seizing [the hell called] Avicii, like the placing (pa.tipaadana.m) end to end of a hair split a hundred times. Accordingly these are difficult to see because of being profound. Thus this passage 'knowledge concerning suffering', etc. is stated with reference to the arising of knowledge in the prior stage by learning etc. in regard to the four truths which are profound because they are difficult to see and difficult to see because they are profound. But at the moment of penetration the knowledge is only one."

[tiltbillings]

. . .

Thank you. I do not, however, see anything in either Buddhaghosa or the Buddha quotes of both msgs that would support your position that you outline in this msg: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 60#p228510

Also, your postings do not really answer my question -- that I can see -- about the arising of wisdom.

[robertk]

your question was "how does one deepen wisdom?"
daverupa gave us this sutta on the first page of this thread:
You might be thinking of the Ghosa Sutta:
"

Monks, there are these two conditions for the arising of right view. Which two? The voice of another and appropriate attention. These are the two conditions for the arising of right view."

right view is a synonym for wisdom.
in the citation from the samohavinodani above it says:
Thus for him there comes to be in the prior stage penetration by learning, questioning, hearing, remembering and comprehending in regard to two truths;

[robertk]

a bit more regarding how to deepen wisdom:
When, Bhikkhus, a Noble Disciple listens carefully to the Dhamma,
alert with keen ears,
attending to it as a matter of crucial concern, as something of vital
importance, directing
his entire mind to it, in that very moment the Five Mental Hindrances
are absent in him.
On that occasion the Seven Links to Awakening develop towards
complete fulfilment...>
Source (edited extract):
The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya.
Book [V: 95-6] section 46: The Links. 38: Unhindered

and

M II, no 95, Cankiisutta.

<http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/
Majjhima2/095-canki-e1.html >

'Good Gotama, now, I know the realising of the truth. How is this attained? Good Gotama, teach me that attainment and realization.'

'Bharadvàja, practising, developing and making much of those same things lead to the realization of the truth. I declare that the realization of the truth is this much.'

'Good Gotama, now I know the realising of the truth. What things are of much help for realising the truth?'

'Bharadvàja, the fourfold endeavour is of much help for the realisation of the truth. If not for the fourfold endeavour, the realisation of the truth is not. Therefore the fourfold endeavour is of much help for the realisation of the truth.'

'Good Gotama, for the fourfold endeavour, what thing is of much help?'

'Bharadvàja, weighing [1] is of much help for the fourfold endeavour. Without the weighing there is no fourfold effort, therefore weighing is of much help for the fourfold endeavour.'

'Good Gotama, for weighing, what thing is of much help?'

'Bharadvàja, struggling [2] is of much help for weighing. Without that struggle there is no weighing, therefore that struggle is of much help for weighing'

'Good Gotama, for struggling, what thing is of much help?'

'Bharadvàja, interest, is of much help for struggling. Without that interest, there is no struggle, therefore that interest is of much help for struggling.'

'Good Gotama, for interest, what thing is of much help?'

'Bharadvàja, rightful speculation [3] is of much help for interest. Without the rightful speculating mind, there is no interest, therefore the rightful speculative mind is of much help for interest.'

'Good Gotama, for a rightful speculative mind, what thing is of much help?'

'Bharadvàja, examining the meanings in the Teaching, is of much help for a rightful speculative mind. Without that examining of meanings in the Teaching, there is norightful speculation, therefore examining
meanings in the Teaching is of much help for a speculative mind.'

'Good Gotama, for examining meanings in the Teaching, what thing is of much help?'

'Bharadvàja, bearing the Teaching in the mind, is of much help for examining meanings in the Teaching. Without bearing the Teaching in mind, there is no examination of meanings, therefore bearing the Teaching in mind is of much help for examining meanings in the Teaching.'

'Good Gotama, for bearing the Teaching in the mind, what thing is of much help?'

'Bharadvàja, listening to the Teaching, is of much help for bearing the Teaching in the mind. Without listening to the Teaching, there is no bearing of the Teaching, therefore listening to the Teaching, is of much help for bearing the Teaching in the mind.'

'Good Gotama, for listening to the Teaching, what thing is of much help?'

'Bharadvàja, lending ear, is of much help for listening to the Teaching. Without lending ear there is no listening to the Teaching, therefore, lending ear, is of much help for listening to the Teaching.'

'Good Gotama, for lending ear, what thing is of much help?'

'Bharadvàja, associating, is of much help for lending ear. Without association there is no lending ears, therefore associating is of much help for lending ear.'

'Good Gotama, for associating, what thing is of much help?'

'Bharadvàja, approaching, is of much help for associating Without an approach there is no association, therefore approaching is of much help for associating.'

'Good Gotama, for approaching, what thing is of much help?'

'Bharadvàja, faith, is of much help for approaching Without faith there is no approaching, therefore faith is of much help for approaching.'...

[1] Weighing is of much help for the fourfold endeavour (padhànassa kho bharadvàja tulanà bahukàrà). The fourfold endeavours are pushing the mind forward earnestly, to dispel arisen demerit to promote non arising of not arisen demerit To promote the arising of not arisen merit and to see the development and completion of arisen merit. For this kind of mental work to happen, we should mentally weigh our activities by body speech and mind. We should be aware of the activities at the six doors of mental contact.

[2] Struggling is of much help for weighing (tulanàya kho bharadvàja ussàho bahukàro hoti). This is a mental struggle. It consists of thinking and pondering to sort out the correct and comes to be right thinking.

[3] Right speculation is of much help for interest (chandassa kho Bharadvàja dhammanijjhànakhanti bahukàrà). Right speculation falls to the category of right thinking. So this is falling to the Noble Eightfold path, with right view at the foremost.

[tiltbillings]

your question was "how does one deepen wisdom?"
daverupa gave us this sutta on the first page of this thread:
You might be thinking of the Ghosa Sutta:
"

Monks, there are these two conditions for the arising of right view. Which two? The voice of another and appropriate attention. These are the two conditions for the arising of right view."

right view is a synonym for wisdom.
in the citation from the samohavinodani above it says:
Thus for him there comes to be in the prior stage penetration by learning, questioning, hearing, remembering and comprehending in regard to two truths;

Yes; however, all this can be easily interpreted differently than you are suggesting. In other words I do not see anything that is unquestionably definitive in supporting your position. I shrug my shoulders. I shall step back and let others see what they can in all this.

[robertk]

The Atthasalini, (triplets p451)defines "ignorant average man" as:
QUOTE

Expositor

"For to whoever owing to the absense of learning by heart and deduction therefrom regarding the khandas(aggregates) elements(dhatus) sense-organs(ayatanas) the causal mode, the applications of mindfulness etc there is NO attainment of that learning which represses opinionativeness, nor any access, owing to the non-attainment of what should be attained by conduct. Such a person, from the absense of such access and such attainment should be known as ignorant"

[robertk]

The commentary to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha, the
Abhidhammattha
Vibhavani explains why the Buddha taught so extensively in many different ways.

"

There are people who like short explanations, there
are people who
like explanations of medium length, and there are
people who like
detailed explanations. Those among the different
groups who are slow in
understanding as regards mentality can understand
realities as
explained by way of five khandhas, because mentality
is classified by
way of four khandhas, thus, in a more extensive way.
Those who are slow
in understanding as regards physical phenomena (rupa)
can understand
realities as explained by way of åyatanas. The five
senses and the
five sense objects are ten kinds of rúpa which are
åyatanas. As to
dhammåyatana this comprises both nåma and rúpa. Thus
in this
classification rúpa has been explained more
extensively. Those who are
slow in understanding as to both nåma and rúpa can
understand realities
as explained by way of elements, dhåtus, because in
this
classification both nåma and rúpa have been explained
in detail."

We see the differences in beings also explained in the suttas>

Anguttara nikaya, Book of 4s, X1V, iii(133) Quick-Witted (PTS)

"Monks, these four persons are found existing in the world. What four?

He who learns by taking hints [uggha.tita~n~nu= (brief-learner)= sankhepa~n~nu]: he who learns by full details [vipa~ncit~n~nu (diffuse-learner)= vitthaarita~n~nu]: he who has to be led on (by instruction)[neyyo=netabba]: he who has just the word (of the text) at most [padaparamo=vya~njana- padam eva parama.n assa, one who learns by heart, is word-perfect but without understanding it]. These are the four."

At this time (acording to the texts) there are only padaparama and neyya. The extremely wise types with high accumulations of parami called Ugghatitannu and Vipancitannu are now extinct. Padaparama cannot attain in this life, although they can in future lives.. We, at this time, - so the Theravada commentaries say- are either padaparama or neyya and we need many details so we have to study and consider a great deal as a condition for understanding. From Ledi sayadaw
http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/individu.htm

QUOTE
Ledi sayadaw.""(1) A Ugghatitannu : an individual whoｷ encounters a Buddha in person, and who is capable of attaining the Holy Paths and the Holy Fruits through the mere hearing of a short concise discourse.

(2) A Vipancitannu: an individual who ｷ encounters a Buddha in person, but ｷ who is capable of attaining the Paths and the Fruits only when the short discourse is expounded to him at some length.

At the present day, only the following Neyya and Padaparama classes of individuals remain.

(3) A Neyya : an individual who needs ｷ to study the sermon and the exposition, and then ｷ to practise the provisions contained therein for 7 days to 60 years, to attain the Paths and the Fruits during this lifetime if he tries hard with guidance from the right teacher.

(4) A Padaparama : is an individual who cannot attain the Paths and the Fruits within this lifetime can attain release from worldly ills in his next existence if he dies while practising samatha or vipassana and attains rebirth either as a human being or a deva within the present Buddha Sasana. "" --
Robert

[tiltbillings]

. . .

All of this and the other msgs where you are quoting commentaries at some length are supposed to support this: http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 60#p228510 ? If so, it is less than clear how so.

[robertk]

In case anyone thinks i mean that simply reading the texts is right practice I should add that pARIYATTi is hearing and considering Dhamma with wise attention. And this leads to pattipati which is the gradual approaching of understanding realties directly.

The right intellectual understanding, if firm enough, sets the foundation for the gradual confirmation in daily life of what has been learnt .
So right now there is seeing, color, sound, feelings...they are inescapable yet for the ignorant they are passed over without any insight While for the one who is beginning to learn directly they are a new world of treasure

[robertk]

. . .

All of this and the other msgs where you are quoting commentaries at some length are supposed to support this: viewtopic.php?f=19&t=15952&start=60#p228510 ? If so, it is less than clear how so.

I am giving some quotes to show the crucial role of learning in the development of wisdom, and how the path is about such development.

[tiltbillings]

In case anyone thinks i mean that simply reading the texts is right practice I should add that pARIYATTi is hearing and considering Dhamma with wise attention. And this leads to pattipati which is the gradual approaching of understanding realties directly.

The right intellectual understanding, if firm enough, sets the foundation for the gradual confirmation of what has been learnt in 'real' life.
So right now there is seeing, color, sound, feelings...they are inescapable yet for the ignorant they are passed over without any insight While for the one who is beginning to learn directly they are a new world of treasure

Nothing at all wrong with right intellectual practice as part of one's practice, But meditation practice, with the idea that it would be a direct help to cultivate wisdom you have blatantly dismissed as at attachment to rules and rituals, which is an extremely dramatic departure from how, it would seem, most people here view such practice of Dhamma. If I am not understanding you, please clarify your stance and correct my misunderstranding.

[tiltbillings]

. . .

All of this and the other msgs where you are quoting commentaries at some length are supposed to support this: http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 60#p228510 ? If so, it is less than clear how so.

I am giving some quotes to show the crucial role of learning in the development of wisdom, and how the path is about such development.

Okay, but I wonder if they, in their fuller contexts, would support this statement of yours: "It is not that sitting and watching the breath or watching bodily sensations is going to help or hinder the path, anymore than me chosing the Belly Sandwich Shop in preference to Subway. But if one believes that it is these very operations that somehow are key to satisampajanna to arise then one is in the realm of silabataparamasa." I don't think the suttas do.

[robertk]

Dear tilt
For practically anyone who is involved in a 'spiritual' path silabataparamasa is almost certain to appear from the very very gross down to very subtle (albeit still virulent).
An example of extreme silabataparamasa: last week I was taking a taxi to the airport in Kathmandu. We were outside the city on some jungle path (seriously) when the driver stops. After a minute I asked what the holdup was.
" did you see the cat sir"
Yes?
"We have to wait until another car comes"
Umm why?
"Very dangerous for you sir, you are going on a long trip"
WTF?
He wouldn't move so we waited 5 minutes or more until a motorbike came along...

But what is amazing is how utterly sure he was of this existential danger and its cure.
We Buddhists think such rituals are ridiculously silly, but still we are not immune to more subtle types.

[tiltbillings]

Dear tilt
For practically anyone who is involved in a 'spiritual' path silabataparamasa is almost certain to appear from the very very gross down to very subtle (albeit still virulent).

You just got done equating sitting meditation of having no more significance in one's "spiritual" practice than choosing which sandwich shop to go to. The issue is not the ritual itself. It is our attitude towards it, our expectation of it, that is the problem with ritual, but let us look at your statement:

It is not that sitting and watching the breath or watching bodily sensations is going to help or hinder the path, anymore than me chosing the Belly Sandwich Shop in preference to Subway. But if one believes that it is these very operations that somehow are key to satisampajanna to arise then one is in the realm of silabataparamasa.

It is hard not to read this as a flat, straight forward dismissal of sitting practice itself. Maybe you were really tired when you wrote this and you really do not mean to dismiss meditation practice as direct away of cultivating the factors giving rise to wisdom/insight. You tell me what you mean here, if you mean something other than how this quote seems to plainly read.

[robertk]

in the visuddhimagga CHAPTER XVII The Soil of Understanding (conclusion):267. Another [thinks] through rules-and-vows(silabataparamasa) clinging, “

This rite and ritual
leads him who perfects it to perfect bliss in becoming in the fortunate states of
the sense sphere or in the fine-material or immaterial kinds of becoming,” and
he performs kamma to achieve that. That kamma of his is kamma-process
becoming. The aggregates generated by the kamma are rebirth-process becoming.
But the percipient, etc., kinds of becoming are included in that, too. So rules-andvows
clinging is a condition for all three, namely, the sense-desire, fine-material
and immaterial kinds of becoming with their analysis and their synthesis.

so this is how incredibly subtle silabataparamasa can be . It can at times even lead to kusala actions.

What more to say of any special practice we think is needed to make vipassana arise. So certainly an idea that by sitting (or standing or walking or talking) or focussing on this or focussing on that , that these actions are neccessary conditions for insight to arise is an aspect of wrong view and silabataparamasa.
Like now, can insight arise while typing on a computer- Yes provided there is enough right understanding. But if one then tries to make it happen, or thinks they should focus on the fingers or the feelings or whatever their object of choice is then that shows a lack of understanding of how incredibly anatta and uncontrollable is each moment.

There is not the patience (khanti) to let satisampajanna arise naturally, as it must if the conditions are there. If one tries in this way it shows one still has some doubts or even disbelieves the texts about anatta. The theory and the practice conform completely: not "oh I still have self, I will do my practice and after I become sotapanna there will be no self" . It will never happen

[tiltbillings]

What more to say of any special practice we think is needed to make vipassana arise. So certainly an idea that by sitting (or standing or walking or talking) or focussing on this or focussing on that , that these actions are neccessary conditions for insight to arise is an aspect of wrong view and silabataparamasa.

If this is how you understand meditation practice, then I think you might have a rather deficient understanding. Of all the teachers I have had and heard, not one of them would characterize meditation in the way you just did.

[danieLion]

Still enjoying this thread. It's very educational. Thanks again to you both.