The causes for wisdom

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The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Tue Jan 22, 2013 5:02 pm

robertk wrote:
But what is thought to be mindfulness in common parlance is often some type of tedious focussing on an approximation of the here and now. This is merely concentration, without any sati or panna, and is a wrong path.


But if we don't pay attention to our experience, how can sati and panna develop?


So first we need to know the conditions for these factors. This thread can consider the causes for panna, wisdom.
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Coyote » Tue Jan 22, 2013 5:15 pm

I have been following these threads and would love to know more. Please share your classical understanding from the Tipitaka and commentaries.

Thanks
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Tue Jan 22, 2013 6:01 pm

Anguttara Nikaya
Mahavaggo THE GREAT CHAPTER Blessings

RETHREN, four blessings should be expected from listening to with
the
ear, constant recitation with the voice, careful consideration with
the mind and penetration of the Norm (Dhamma) through insight (1).
What four ?
Herein, brethren, a brother masters the Norm consisting of the
Suttas..... Vedalla (2). He thus listens to, constantly recites,
carefully ponders over and penetrates the Norm. When he dies
bewildered (3) in mind and is reborn in a certain assembly of devas,
there the blissful ones recite to him the stanzas of the Norm.
Brethren, the arising of mindfulness is slow, but such a being
quickly achieves distinction therein.(4) Brethren, this is the first
blessing that should be expected from listening to, constant
recitation, careful consideration and penetration of the Norm
through
insight.

Again, brethren, a brother masters the Norm consisting of the
Suttas,
etc. He thus listens to; [as above] and is reborn in an assembly of
devas. There the blissful ones do not recite to him the stanzas of
the Norm ; but a brother possessed of psychic powers, who has
mastered his mind, proclaims the Norm to the assembly of devas. Then
this thought occurs to him (the former) This is indeed that Norm and
Discipline, according to which I lived the holy life in my previous
existence.' Brethren, slow is the arising of mindfulness. Yet that
being quickly achieves distinction therein.

Brethren, just as a person skilled in the sounds of drums, having
entered a road, hears the sound of a drum, and has no doubt or
uncertainty as to whether it is the sound of a drum or not. Then he
concludes that it is surely the sound of a drum. Just so, brethren,
a
brother masters the Norm consisting of the Suttas, etc. Then he
listens to [as above]. Then indeed that being quickly achieves
distinction therein. Brethren, this is the second blessing that
should be expected from listening to, constant recitation, careful
consideration and penetration of the Norm through insight....

1 Diññiyà,. Comy. says 'himself penetrates it by his wisdom both as
regards sense and cause.'

3 Comy. says 'he is still a puthujjana'' One dying without reaching
the Paths is said to die with mindfulness not established.

4 Comy`. He becomes nibbàna-gàmin (bound for the goal).'

http://www.abhidhamma.org/anguttara_nikaya...(2)%2020htm.htm
best wishes
robert
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Tue Jan 22, 2013 6:03 pm

Thanks. I was trying to find the sutta where I think sariputta explains the two causes for wisdom to arise:the voice of another(the Buddha) and wise attention.
Does anyone know it?
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby daverupa » Tue Jan 22, 2013 6:14 pm

robertk wrote:Thanks. I was trying to find the sutta where I think sariputta explains the two causes for wisdom to arise:the voice of another(the Buddha) and wise attention.
Does anyone know it?


You might be thinking of the Ghosa Sutta:

"Monks, there are these two conditions for the arising of wrong view. Which two? The voice of another and inappropriate attention. These are the two conditions for the arising of wrong view."

"Monks, there are these two conditions for the arising of right view. Which two? The voice of another and appropriate attention. These are the two conditions for the arising of right view."
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Tue Jan 22, 2013 6:22 pm

Nice thanks!
I was actually thinking of this one -which repeats the same words-and which your link gives a link to.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

So anyway the crucial conditions for panna , right view, are hearing true Dhamma from the Buddha or his disciple and wise attention to said Dhamma.
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Coyote » Tue Jan 22, 2013 6:37 pm

Hi Robertk, Daverupa,

robertk wrote:So anyway the crucial conditions for panna , right view, are hearing true Dhamma from the Buddha or his disciple and wise attention to said Dhamma.


My understanding of Buddhist terminology is rather limited - but I don't see anything different here than what has been taught in "common parlance ". Perhaps you could clarify what "wise attention" means here.

Thanks,
:anjali:
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:30 am

HI coyote,
not sure I understand your question about common parlance?

One important issue I want to bring out is that the idea expressed in the opening post that it is by 'paying attention to our experiences' that wisdom develops, seems not really supported by sutta.
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:09 am

robertk wrote:robertk wrote:
But what is thought to be mindfulness in common parlance is often some type of tedious focussing on an approximation of the here and now. This is merely concentration, without any sati or panna, and is a wrong path.
Okay. Examples of this. Who teaches such a thing?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:33 am

tiltbillings wrote:
robertk wrote:robertk wrote:
But what is thought to be mindfulness in common parlance is often some type of tedious focussing on an approximation of the here and now. This is merely concentration, without any sati or panna, and is a wrong path.
Okay. Examples of this. Who teaches such a thing?




In this thread we have someone saying:
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=15935&start=20
Digity wrote:
My biggest issue with mindfulness is boredom. It's often boring to be mindful when I'm washing my teeth or doing the dishes. Does it ever become enjoyable to do all these things mindfully?
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:40 am

robertk wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
robertk wrote:robertk wrote:
But what is thought to be mindfulness in common parlance is often some type of tedious focussing on an approximation of the here and now. This is merely concentration, without any sati or panna, and is a wrong path.
Okay. Examples of this. Who teaches such a thing?




In this thread we have someone saying:
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=15935&start=20
Digity wrote:
My biggest issue with mindfulness is boredom. It's often boring to be mindful when I'm washing my teeth or doing the dishes. Does it ever become enjoyable to do all these things mindfully?
Well, that can be seen as one person's not quite understanding things appropriately. So, do we take it, then, that this sort of thing is not actually being taught by anyone?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:50 am

I wonder why you expect that I know every possible thing that has been or is taught. Is it an important issue.?
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:54 am

robertk wrote:I wonder why you expect that I know every possible thing that has been or is taught. Is it an important issue.?
I certainly don't expect to you, or anyone, to know everything, but I would expect you to be able to put some flesh the bones of the OP to help make your point.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Spiny Norman » Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:05 am

robertk wrote:One important issue I want to bring out is that the idea expressed in the opening post that it is by 'paying attention to our experiences' that wisdom develops, seems not really supported by sutta.


Isn't the Satipatthana Sutta a detailed exposition of how to pay attention to our experience?
Well, oi dunno...
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:38 pm

In that sutta it is satisampajanna that needs to be understood and developed. While it is absolutely correct that the sati component knows a reality at the moment if satipatthana it must be in combibation with wisdom ( the pajanapart) to qualify as satipatthana.
And the wisdom in this case progressively understands the anattaness of every moment.
It can be seen as a virtuous circle where correct wise reflection on true Dhamma conditions correct moments of insight leading to deeper intellectual understand ing and rhen more moments of deeper direct experience.

c is true that sati
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jan 23, 2013 1:59 pm

robertk wrote:In that sutta it is satisampajanna that needs to be understood and developed. While it is absolutely correct that the sati component knows a reality at the moment if satipatthana it must be in combibation with wisdom ( the pajanapart) to qualify as satipatthana.
And the wisdom in this case progressively understands the anattaness of every moment.
It can be seen as a virtuous circle where correct wise reflection on true Dhamma conditions correct moments of insight leading to deeper intellectual understand ing and rhen more moments of deeper direct experience.

c is true that sati
And so what does this look like as an actual real life practice?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Spiny Norman » Wed Jan 23, 2013 2:04 pm

robertk wrote:In that sutta it is satisampajanna that needs to be understood and developed.


OK, but isn't satisampajanna the result of the practice of paying attention described in the Satipatthana Sutta? In a similar way one could say that samadhi is a "result" of practicing samatha.
Well, oi dunno...
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Sam Vara » Wed Jan 23, 2013 2:54 pm

robertk wrote:In that sutta it is satisampajanna that needs to be understood and developed. While it is absolutely correct that the sati component knows a reality at the moment if satipatthana it must be in combibation with wisdom ( the pajanapart) to qualify as satipatthana.
And the wisdom in this case progressively understands the anattaness of every moment.
It can be seen as a virtuous circle where correct wise reflection on true Dhamma conditions correct moments of insight leading to deeper intellectual understand ing and rhen more moments of deeper direct experience.

c is true that sati


Yes, could you say a bit more to clarify this, please? The sutta has

"There is the case where a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. He remains focused on feelings... mind... mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world.


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.010.than.html

Where the "mindful" bit is satima, and the "alert" bit is sampajanno. Is it that the sampajanna functions like this:
"And how is a monk alert? There is the case where feelings are known to the monk as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. Thoughts are known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. Perceptions are known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. This is how a monk is alert.

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=15956&view=unread#unread
and the "wisdom" consists of knowing the rise, persistence, and fall of what one is mindful of?
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:54 pm

Thanks for the great questions everyone.
I will add some citations later but I think this piece from B.B. Is worth reviewing.
Bhikkhu Bodhi's In the Buddha's Words page 302:




Contemporary Buddhist literature commonly conveys two ideas about pañña that have become almost axioms in the popular understanding of Buddhism, The first is that pañña is exclusively nonconceptual and nondiscursive, a type of cognition that defies all the laws of logical thought; the second, that pañña arises spontaneously, through an act of pure intuition as sudden and instantaneous as a brilliant flash of lightning. These two ideas about pañña are closely connected. If pañña defies all the laws of thought, it cannot be approached by any type of conceptual activity but can arise only when the rational, discriminative, conceptual activity of the mind has been stultified. And this stopping of conceptualization, somewhat like the demolition of a building, must be a rapid one, an undermining of thought not previously prepared for by any gradual maturation of understanding. Thus, in the popular understanding of Buddhism, pañña defies rationality and easily slides off into "crazy wisdom," an incomprehensible, mindboggling way of relating to the world that dances at the thin edge between super-rationality and madness.

Such ideas about pañña receive no support at all from the teachings of the Nikayas, which, are consistently sane, lucid, and sober, To take the two points in reverse order: First, far from arising spontaneously, pañña in the Nikayas is emphatically conditioned, arisen from an underlying matrix of causes and conditions. And second, pañña is not bare intuition, but a careful, discriminative understanding that at certain stages involves precise conceptual operations. Pañña is directed to specific domains of understanding. These domains, known in the Pali commentaries as "the soil of wisdom" (paññabhumi), must be thoroughIy investigated and mastered through conceptual understanding before direct, nonconceptual insight can effectively accomplish its work. To master them requires analysis, discrimination, and discernment. One must be able to abstract from the overwhelming mass of facts certain basic patterns fundamental to all experience and use these patterns as templates for close contemplation of one's own experience
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby beeblebrox » Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:40 pm

Hi everyone, the following underlined seems important to me:

There is the case where a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. He remains focused on feelings... mind... mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world.


Is it possible to put aside the greed and distress in reference to the world without having the wisdom?

:anjali:
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