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Can Mindfulness be unpleasant?

Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 9:33 am
by robertk
I sometimes find that being mindful is an uncomfortable experience. ;)
Yes, I hate it.
++++++++++++++++++
These is part of a discussion I read.
According to Abhidhamma it is impossible for any mindstate associated with sati to have unpleasant feeling. It can only come with either pleasant or neutral feeling. Subsequent and preceeding mindstates could of course be with dosa and have unpleasant feeling

Re: Can Mindfulness be unpleasant?

Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 9:43 am
by tiltbillings
And why is this discussion in this section?

Re: Can Mindfulness be unpleasant?

Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 9:45 am
by retrofuturist
Greetings Robert,
According to Abhidhamma it is impossible for any mindstate associated with sati to have unpleasant feeling.
In Classical Theravada can one be mindful of anger?

In Classical Theravada can anger be regarded with equanimity?

Metta,
Retro. :)

Re: Can Mindfulness be unpleasant?

Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 9:54 am
by Bhikkhu Pesala
I am currently editing the Mahāsi Sayādaw's discourse on the Cūlavedalla Sutta where he says:
In this Buddha’s dispensation, a bhikkhu reflects and yearns: “At the present time, Noble Ones are seeking refuge in the noble Dhamma. When will I be able to fully acquire this noble Dhamma?” A person who is longing for the noblest Dhamma or Arahantship for final liberation is said to be feeling sorry and dejected because of his longing for a desired thing. If a meditator expects to achieve the noble path of Arahantship within a month — or at least within two or three months — fails to achieve his objective as expected, he or she would probably reflect: “Others have attained the path, whereas I have not had a glimpse of that noble Dhamma though I have been striving hard.” As doubt arises, he or she may soliloquise: “Is there any possibility for me to attain the path?” Under such circumstances, dejection and sorrow might arise. Such a feeling of dejection (domanassa) is painful feeling rested upon by the latent tendency to aversion. However, such feelings are not that kind of dhamma that should be rejected because it has arisen dependant on the expectation to achieve the noble Dhamma.
Elsewhere, he refers to this as wholesome sorrow.

So, although domanassa is an unwholesome mental state, in this case it leads to the meditator striving harder to achieve the goal, so disappointment and dejection forms a basis for the development of wholesome mental factors leading to the attainment of the path.

Re: Can Mindfulness be unpleasant?

Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 10:11 am
by perkele
Yes, I hate it.
That quote was from me.
I was joking. Should have put a smiley there maybe. But smileys make some jokes look so uncool. :sage:
I guess it's true what the Abhidhamma says, if it says so, that the citta arising at the moment of mindfulness, which takes whatever previous momentary citta as an object, whether that has been pleasent or not, cannot be unpleasent. (If you can read the Abhidhamma, then you can probably also decipher this awful sentence. :tongue:)
The moment of seeing things clearly is always pleasent. Even if the things to be seen were unpleasent at first sight. Or I'm not really able to express it. But it seems true to me.
I guess I should better not discuss Abhidhamma. :rolleye:
But I just started reading it, coincidentally. Looks interesting.
:reading:

Edit:
Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:...
Cool... Feels encouraging. Thanks for that. :smile:

Re: Can Mindfulness be unpleasant?

Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 11:09 am
by Ben
robertk wrote:According to Abhidhamma it is impossible for any mindstate associated with sati to have unpleasant feeling. It can only come with either pleasant or neutral feeling. Subsequent and preceeding mindstates could of course be with dosa and have unpleasant feeling
Yes, I think that is quite correct.
kind regards,

Ben

Re: Can Mindfulness be unpleasant?

Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 11:58 am
by robertk
retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Robert,
According to Abhidhamma it is impossible for any mindstate associated with sati to have unpleasant feeling.
In Classical Theravada can one be mindful of anger?

In Classical Theravada can anger be regarded with equanimity?

Metta,
Retro. :)
Hi retro
Yes is the answer to both questions.

Re: Can Mindfulness be unpleasant?

Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 12:07 pm
by robertk
tiltbillings wrote:And why is this discussion in this section?
Please move it to the appropriate forum. :smile:

Re: Can Mindfulness be unpleasant?

Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 12:16 pm
by tiltbillings
robertk wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:And why is this discussion in this section?
Please move it to the appropriate forum. :smile:
My mistake.

Re: Can Mindfulness be unpleasant?

Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 1:24 pm
by FatDaddy
Ben wrote:
robertk wrote:According to Abhidhamma it is impossible for any mindstate associated with sati to have unpleasant feeling. It can only come with either pleasant or neutral feeling. Subsequent and preceeding mindstates could of course be with dosa and have unpleasant feeling
Yes, I think that is quite correct.
kind regards,

Ben
I don't understand this. Sati can have an unpleasant sensation or state as an object. Is it refereing to sati with samatha?

Re: Can Mindfulness be unpleasant?

Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 1:45 pm
by robertk
In the case of sati taking for example dosa, aversion , as an object, immediatly that sati arises the dosa falls away momentarily. It may come back but at the moment of sati arising it has gone. This is sometimes called tadanga nirodha, momentary cessation

Re: Can Mindfulness be unpleasant?

Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 2:34 pm
by FatDaddy
robertk wrote:In the case of sati taking for example dosa, aversion , as an object, immediatly that sati arises the dosa falls away momentarily. It may come back but at the moment of sati arising it has gone. This is sometimes called tadanga nirodha, momentary cessation
Maybe I am operating with an incorrect definition of sati and samatha. It seems to me you need sati (bare awarness?) and samatha (concentration?) to make dosa fall away. Does sati in this sense imply some level of absorbsion in the object? Or is it such a brief moment that I don't notice unless I am concentrated?

EDIT: I just noticed this post refers to Abidhamma, which I know little about. This may be the source of my confusion.

Re: Can Mindfulness be unpleasant?

Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 2:46 pm
by kirk5a
robertk wrote:In the case of sati taking for example dosa, aversion , as an object, immediatly that sati arises the dosa falls away momentarily. It may come back but at the moment of sati arising it has gone. This is sometimes called tadanga nirodha, momentary cessation
Please provide a citation in support of this, thanks.

Re: Can Mindfulness be unpleasant?

Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 3:00 pm
by Spiny Norman
robertk wrote:
I sometimes find that being mindful is an uncomfortable experience. ;)
Yes, I hate it.
++++++++++++++++++
These is part of a discussion I read.
According to Abhidhamma it is impossible for any mindstate associated with sati to have unpleasant feeling. It can only come with either pleasant or neutral feeling. Subsequent and preceeding mindstates could of course be with dosa and have unpleasant feeling
Robert, I was using "being mindful" above in the sense of paying attention to painful feeling. It seems again to be a question of how "sati" is defined - is there a definition in the Abiddhamma?

Re: Can Mindfulness be unpleasant?

Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 3:05 pm
by Spiny Norman
robertk wrote:In the case of sati taking for example dosa, aversion , as an object, immediatly that sati arises the dosa falls away momentarily. It may come back but at the moment of sati arising it has gone. This is sometimes called tadanga nirodha, momentary cessation
Interesting. So does this mean that sati and dosa cannot be present at the same time? And does it mean that if one were able to maintain sati continuously, then dosa could not re-ocurr?