never fall into lower realms again?

A forum for members who wish to develop a deeper understanding of the Pali Canon and associated Commentaries, which for discussion purposes are both treated as authoritative.

Moderator: Mahavihara moderator

never fall into lower realms again?

Postby alan... » Thu Jan 17, 2013 6:39 pm

there is some attainment that is not sotapanna that guarantees one will never fall into the lower realms again. what is it?

it does not guarantee nibbana but it does keep one in human or above realms forever. i feel like it has something to do with the precepts...

i think i read it in the canon i think but i can't remember where...
alan...
 
Posts: 824
Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:37 pm

Re: never fall into lower realms again?

Postby daverupa » Thu Jan 17, 2013 6:42 pm

It's stream-entry which guarantees no more lower realms; precisely, it is the destruction of the three lower fetters which is the reason for this guarantee.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
User avatar
daverupa
 
Posts: 4246
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm

Re: never fall into lower realms again?

Postby alan... » Thu Jan 17, 2013 6:49 pm

daverupa wrote:It's stream-entry which guarantees no more lower realms; precisely, it is the destruction of the three lower fetters which is the reason for this guarantee.


i feel like you're right and i'm just mixing things up. but it also guarantees only seven more rebirths right? so what point is there to say it guarantees no lower rebirths? i guess just to clarify that the seven more births won't be as a goat? isn't that implied since goats can't practice dhamma?

i swear there's some attainment that guarantees this but is not one of the four attainments: stream winner, once returner, non returner, arahant.

i tried web searching. there is a mahayana thing where achieving bodhichitta means no rebirth but obviously i'm looking for something in the pali canon. is there something similar?
alan...
 
Posts: 824
Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:37 pm

Re: never fall into lower realms again?

Postby perkele » Thu Jan 17, 2013 7:00 pm

I have heard of the concept of a "cula-sotapanna" ("lesser" sotapanna), as discussed here for example: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=434
It seems to designate a person who is not yet a sotapanna but for some reason will definitely attain the fruit of sotapatti upon death, or even shortly thereafter, after being reborn in some deva realm where he swiftly receives instruction.

So that's something different than what you were talking about.

I also remember vaguely someone (I think it might have been Bhante Yuttadhammo in one of his gazillions of videos) talking about some "attainment" where a person has been able to see the workings of kamma clearly, so that they are unable to do anything in this life which will take them to one of the lower realms, but they have not yet abandoned the three lower fetters and can forget about what they saw in the next life, and so go down again. I think that was also referred to as cula-sotapanna, so maybe the term is not quite so definitely defined and agreed upon. But I have not investigated this very much.

But what you mention about someone being unable to go to the lower realms ever anymore, but not being a stream-enterer, or on his definite way to stream-entry, is something I have never heard of.
perkele
 
Posts: 345
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2011 2:37 pm

Re: never fall into lower realms again?

Postby kirk5a » Thu Jan 17, 2013 7:03 pm

"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
User avatar
kirk5a
 
Posts: 1784
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2010 1:51 pm

Re: never fall into lower realms again?

Postby gavesako » Thu Jan 17, 2013 7:22 pm

The stream enterer has cut off the possibility of falling into lower realms because they have achieved an ethical level which prevents them from committing certain heavy actions (kamma) that would lead downwards. Also, whatever bad kamma they have done in the past, is now not strong enough -- due to the overwhelming positive kamma from meditation and insight -- to lead to a low rebirth.

"Ananda, if there were no kamma ripening in the sensuality-property, would sensuality-becoming be discerned?"

"No, lord."

"Thus kamma is the field, consciousness the seed, and craving the moisture.[2] The consciousness of living beings hindered by ignorance & fettered by craving is established in/tuned to a lower property. Thus there is the production of renewed becoming in the future.

"If there were no kamma ripening in the form-property, would form-becoming be discerned?"

"No, lord."

"Thus kamma is the field, consciousness the seed, and craving the moisture. The consciousness of living beings hindered by ignorance & fettered by craving is established in/tuned to a middling property. Thus there is the production of renewed becoming in the future.

"If there were no kamma ripening in the formless-property, would formless-becoming be discerned?"

"No, lord."

"Thus kamma is the field, consciousness the seed, and craving the moisture. The consciousness of living beings hindered by ignorance & fettered by craving is established in/tuned to a refined property. Thus there is the production of renewed becoming in the future. This is how there is becoming."


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


For a non-returner, the positive kamma is so strong that they can only re-arise in the Suddhavasa formless sphere. There is no more fuel that would generate a lower rebirth than that.
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

ajahnchah.org - Teachings of Ajahn Chah in many languages
Dhammatube - Videos on Buddhist practice
Ancient Buddhist Texts - Translations and history of Pali texts
User avatar
gavesako
 
Posts: 1408
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2009 5:16 pm
Location: England

Re: never fall into lower realms again?

Postby Cittasanto » Thu Jan 17, 2013 7:27 pm

alan... wrote:there is some attainment that is not sotapanna that guarantees one will never fall into the lower realms again. what is it?

it does not guarantee nibbana but it does keep one in human or above realms forever. i feel like it has something to do with the precepts...

i think i read it in the canon i think but i can't remember where...

Jhana does guarantee a "above" rebirthbut not forever, only the sorapanna or above are guaranteed no further lower births to my knowledge. but living a virtuous life will do the same all you need to do is remember not to be unvirtuous.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
User avatar
Cittasanto
 
Posts: 5829
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin

Re: never fall into lower realms again?

Postby alan... » Thu Jan 17, 2013 7:46 pm

Cittasanto wrote:
alan... wrote:there is some attainment that is not sotapanna that guarantees one will never fall into the lower realms again. what is it?

it does not guarantee nibbana but it does keep one in human or above realms forever. i feel like it has something to do with the precepts...

i think i read it in the canon i think but i can't remember where...

Jhana does guarantee a "above" rebirthbut not forever, only the sorapanna or above are guaranteed no further lower births to my knowledge. but living a virtuous life will do the same all you need to do is remember not to be unvirtuous.


i think you are talking about what i mistook for a forever thing. i think i read in a sutta that either jhana or virtuous living or both lead to a long period of upper realm rebirth but not forever and am remembering it wrong.
alan...
 
Posts: 824
Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:37 pm

Re: never fall into lower realms again?

Postby PadmaPhala » Fri Mar 22, 2013 1:21 am

alan... wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:
alan... wrote:there is some attainment that is not sotapanna that guarantees one will never fall into the lower realms again. what is it?

it does not guarantee nibbana but it does keep one in human or above realms forever. i feel like it has something to do with the precepts...

i think i read it in the canon i think but i can't remember where...

Jhana does guarantee a "above" rebirthbut not forever, only the sorapanna or above are guaranteed no further lower births to my knowledge. but living a virtuous life will do the same all you need to do is remember not to be unvirtuous.


i think you are talking about what i mistook for a forever thing. i think i read in a sutta that either jhana or virtuous living or both lead to a long period of upper realm rebirth but not forever and am remembering it wrong.


if someone dies while in jhana, the rebirth will be in a higher realm... don't remember where i read it.
User avatar
PadmaPhala
 
Posts: 164
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2012 5:22 am

Re: never fall into lower realms again?

Postby convivium » Fri Mar 22, 2013 6:28 am

one's being concerned with one's rebirth is a sure sign of delusion.
Just keep breathing in and out like this. Don't be interested in anything else. It doesn't matter even if someone is standing on their head with their ass in the air. Don't pay it any attention. Just stay with the in-breath and the out-breath. Concentrate your awareness on the breath. Just keep doing it. http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Just_Do_It_1_2.php
User avatar
convivium
 
Posts: 574
Joined: Wed May 05, 2010 7:13 am

Re: never fall into lower realms again?

Postby LonesomeYogurt » Fri Mar 22, 2013 6:35 am

convivium wrote:one's being concerned with one's rebirth is a sure sign of delusion.

One being concerned, however, with acting in wholesome ways that lead to enlightenment is not. Striving for freedom from rebirth in the lower realms falls into the latter category.
Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta

Stuff I write about things.
User avatar
LonesomeYogurt
 
Posts: 900
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:24 pm
Location: America

Re: never fall into lower realms again?

Postby convivium » Fri Mar 22, 2013 6:37 am

it's mundane right view (from the perspective of transcendental right view even this is, in a sense, delusion). as concerns this life, however, it seems more relevant that one should strive to see through the false sense of being this intellect or subject (this sufferer) that is separate and removed from (and afflicted by) the rest of the world.
Just keep breathing in and out like this. Don't be interested in anything else. It doesn't matter even if someone is standing on their head with their ass in the air. Don't pay it any attention. Just stay with the in-breath and the out-breath. Concentrate your awareness on the breath. Just keep doing it. http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Just_Do_It_1_2.php
User avatar
convivium
 
Posts: 574
Joined: Wed May 05, 2010 7:13 am

Re: never fall into lower realms again?

Postby Nyorai » Fri Mar 22, 2013 7:11 am

lower realms are the ghost, animals and hell - this is simple not to fall into, just be vegetarianism, think kindly, benevolently and be charitable for the good of others :twothumbsup:
ImageTo become vegetarian is to step into the stream which leads to nirvana.
If you light a lamp for somebody, it will also brighten your path. He who experiences the unity of life sees his own Self in all beings, and all beings in his own Self.Image
User avatar
Nyorai
 
Posts: 58
Joined: Sun Mar 10, 2013 2:44 am

Re: never fall into lower realms again?

Postby BlackBird » Fri Mar 22, 2013 7:23 am

If I recall correctly according to the suttas one who has obtained the path but not the fruit of Stream Entry is called either a Saddhanusari or a Dhammanursari depending on whether they obtained the path through primarily faith or investigation. My memory is a little hazy here on this subject.

The commentarial tradition has it that Path and stream are obtained more or less simultaneously and while that is a distinct possibility,
I recall in Ven. Bodhi's notes in the Majjihma he makes a comment to the effect that the simultaneous realization of both path and fruit was to be called into question by a particular sutta's use of such a term. Maybe it was in SN actually I don't remember.

The point is that in virtue of a being obtaining the path leading to stream entry, but not the fruit, he has already cut off the chance he will be reborn in the lower realms, as by obtaining the path he is destined to realize the fruit before his life expires.

I'm not sure if this type of response is allowed here in the Classical section so please accept my apologies Moderators if it is not.

Nyorai wrote:lower realms are the ghost, animals and hell - this is simple not to fall into, just be vegetarianism, think kindly, benevolently and be charitable for the good of others :twothumbsup:


Just being a vegetarian has nothing to do with avoiding the lower realms. The Buddha ate meat.

metta
Jack
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta
User avatar
BlackBird
 
Posts: 1861
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 12:07 pm
Location: New Zealand

Re: never fall into lower realms again?

Postby santa100 » Fri Mar 22, 2013 1:51 pm

alan... wrote:
there is some attainment that is not sotapanna that guarantees one will never fall into the lower realms again. what is it?

it does not guarantee nibbana but it does keep one in human or above realms forever. i feel like it has something to do with the precepts...

i think i read it in the canon i think but i can't remember where...


Yes, by fully observing the Five Precepts and taking Refuge in the Triple Gem as described in AN 8.39 ( http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html )
santa100
 
Posts: 1557
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:55 pm

Re: never fall into lower realms again?

Postby Digity » Fri Mar 22, 2013 4:32 pm

Does a stream winner have just seven lives remaining? I've also heard the word for seven in Pali also means "many" lives, so it could mean 10, 100, 1000 or very many, but they'll eventually put an end to suffering. I would like some clarification on this.
Samsara sucks.
Digity
 
Posts: 603
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:13 am

Re: never fall into lower realms again?

Postby equilibrium » Fri Mar 22, 2013 9:25 pm

Digity wrote:Does a stream winner have just seven lives remaining? I've also heard the word for seven in Pali also means "many" lives, so it could mean 10, 100, 1000 or very many, but they'll eventually put an end to suffering. I would like some clarification on this.


Nibbaana is the summum bonum of Buddhist practice, to be achieved only by following the Noble Eightfold Path. For most of us the journey along the Path will be long and arduous, but there are sign-posts on the way that will indicate we are going in the right direction. We will recognize these sign-posts when the fetters that bind us are broken in succession. When the first three fetters — personality view, doubt, and clinging to mere rules and rituals — are broken one becomes a "stream enterer" (sotaapanna), one who has entered the stream to nibbaana. The fetters, once broken, will never bind such a person again. This is the truth he knows without uncertainty. The stream-enterer will not be reborn in the four lower planes of existence. He will take rebirth seven times at the most, either in the human or heavenly planes.

source: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... l#nibbaana
User avatar
equilibrium
 
Posts: 215
Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2012 11:07 am

Re: never fall into lower realms again?

Postby BlackBird » Fri Mar 22, 2013 11:28 pm

It's unequivocally 7.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta
User avatar
BlackBird
 
Posts: 1861
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 12:07 pm
Location: New Zealand

Re: never fall into lower realms again?

Postby convivium » Sat Mar 23, 2013 3:41 am

It's unequivocally 7.
and 54 types of sense sphere consciousnesses, and 8 or 40 supermundane cittas.
Just keep breathing in and out like this. Don't be interested in anything else. It doesn't matter even if someone is standing on their head with their ass in the air. Don't pay it any attention. Just stay with the in-breath and the out-breath. Concentrate your awareness on the breath. Just keep doing it. http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Just_Do_It_1_2.php
User avatar
convivium
 
Posts: 574
Joined: Wed May 05, 2010 7:13 am


Return to Classical Theravāda

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests