attain nibbana without knowing about kamma and rebirth

Exploring the Dhamma, as understood from the perspective of the ancient Pali commentaries.
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robertk
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attain nibbana without knowing about kamma and rebirth

Post by robertk »

in reality one does not need to know anything about rebirth at all. one can simply practice the dhamma, see through reality bit by bit and eventually enter nibbana never knowing a thing about rebirth being real or not
Actually in the vipassana nanas one of the earlier stages is called paccayapariggahanana , meaning that it is seen that every moment is conditioned by other moments (including kamma). . It is also called kankhavitarana visuddhi ( Escape from all Doubt Purification- one no longer doubts truths like kamma or rebirth)
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Alex123
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Re: attain nibbana without knowing about kamma and rebirth

Post by Alex123 »

robertk wrote:Actually in the vipassana nanas one of the earlier stages is called paccayapariggahanana , meaning that it is seen that every moment is conditioned by other moments (including kamma).
I can understand how this is seen to happen moment-by-moment, but what about distant past (prior to one's birth) ?

robertk wrote:It is also called kankhavitarana visuddhi ( Escape from all Doubt Purification- one no longer doubts truths like kamma or rebirth)
1) Does one attains some sort of ESP and can see previous lives?
2) Is it direct seeing or inferential?

Thanks,

With best wishes,

Alex
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robertk
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Re: attain nibbana without knowing about kamma and rebirth

Post by robertk »

It is seen directly that the previous moments condition this moment and thus rebirth is seen momentarily. One knows that it is impossible for citta to arise without prior cittas conditioning it.
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Alex123
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Re: attain nibbana without knowing about kamma and rebirth

Post by Alex123 »

robertk wrote:It is seen directly that the previous moments condition this moment and thus rebirth is seen momentarily. One knows that it is impossible for citta to arise without prior cittas conditioning it.

Why can't the first citta of child's life be conditioned by the brain, or cittas of parents?
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robertk
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Re: attain nibbana without knowing about kamma and rebirth

Post by robertk »

Apparently if the stage of vipassana is reached then the actual conditions are known, and so it would be clear that the parents cittas play no part: they are completely separate.
The same regarding any influence from the 'brain'.
SarathW
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Re: attain nibbana without knowing about kamma and rebirth

Post by SarathW »

HI
My understanding is
- That there is no doer (person) of Kamma and hence there is no one to experience it. Just the phenomena flow on.
- There is no place called Nibbana and no person to attain it and nothing to be attained!
- So ???? who am I and my parents and my thoughts?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Sylvester
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Re: attain nibbana without knowing about kamma and rebirth

Post by Sylvester »

Let alone Full Awakening, I doubt if one could even attain Stream Entry without knowing about kamma and rebirth.
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Mr. Grimnasty
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Re: attain nibbana without knowing about kamma and rebirth

Post by Mr. Grimnasty »

Sylvester wrote:Let alone Full Awakening, I doubt if one could even attain Stream Entry without knowing about kamma and rebirth.
Could you clarify what you mean by this?
Do you mean that a necessary condition for stream entry is knowing that kamma and rebirth are true? Or is the necessary condition knowing that kamma and rebirth are the Buddha's teachings and then believing them to be true?
If the former, does it follow that a would-be stream enterer needs first to obtain the deva eye that sees the arising and passing of beings in accordance with their kammas? Or are there other ways for uninstructed worldlings to reliably know that kamma and rebirth are true?
If the latter, how is an unverified faith in kamma and rebirth instrumental in bringing about the arising of the spotless and immaculate eye of Dhamma (the sine qua non of stream entry attainment)? What role does faith of this type play in this event?

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robertk
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Re: attain nibbana without knowing about kamma and rebirth

Post by robertk »

are there other ways for uninstructed worldlings to reliably know that kamma and rebirth are true?
That is what the first post in this thread explains.
nibbuti
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Re: attain nibbana without knowing about kamma and rebirth

Post by nibbuti »

robertk wrote:Actually in the vipassana nanas one of the earlier stages is called paccayapariggahanana , meaning that it is seen that every moment is conditioned by other moments (including kamma). . It is also called kankhavitarana visuddhi ( Escape from all Doubt Purification- one no longer doubts truths like kamma or rebirth)
Hi robertk

Can you point to a sutta reference that supports this claim?
robertk wrote:one no longer doubts truths like kamma or rebirth
Are you aware that the doubt hindrance (vicikicchā), as the Buddha taught it, is specifically about wholesome & unwholesome states (dhammas) and their causes, in the sense of the four noble truths, which doesn't have to include just any dogma or view that is considered 'Buddhist'?

Are you aware that even Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi (who is a firm believer in rebirth) implies kamma and rebirth are an ethical teaching?:
The Buddha himself does not try to found ethics on the ideas of kamma and rebirth, but uses a purely naturalistic type of moral reasoning that does not presuppose personal survival or the working of kamma. - Bhikkhu Bodhi in 'Does rebirth make sense?'
:juggling:
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Mr. Grimnasty
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Re: attain nibbana without knowing about kamma and rebirth

Post by Mr. Grimnasty »

robertk wrote:
are there other ways for uninstructed worldlings to reliably know that kamma and rebirth are true?
That is what the first post in this thread explains.
Okay, but could I ask you to say a little more on this topic. You stated: "Actually in the vipassana nanas one of the earlier stages is called paccayapariggahanana, meaning that it is seen that every moment is conditioned by other moments (including kamma)."

Now presumably in the moment a person gets to paccayapariggahanana she doesn't literally see EVERY moment in that particular moment, right? So would it be correct to say that the epistemic status of her new-found knowledge is inferential? In other words, at paccayapariggahanana she sees with insight dhamma-x conditioning the arising of dhamma-y, and then she extrapolates to conclude that every arising of a y is conditioned by an x.

Or are you saying that there is no inferring here at all, but that a knowledge of the universal applicability of what the person sees is in fact intrinsic to paccayapariggahanana, i.e. the moment she sees with insight an instance of x conditioning y she infallibly knows that all y's arise from x's?

If the former, how might her inference be defended against the charge of being simply a bloated conclusion?
If the latter, how can it be reconciled with the Abhidhamma idea that in one moment all you've got is one citta, along with a bundle of cetasikas, cognizing one object? That is, if paccayapariggahanana is an insight knowledge that that takes as its object a particular relationship between two dhammas, it cannot (on the Abhidhamma's premises) simultaneously take as its object the universality of this relationship.

Or am I simply overlooking something here?
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reflection
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Re: attain nibbana without knowing about kamma and rebirth

Post by reflection »

After stream entry there is no more doubt about the dhamma, including rebirth and kamma, because one important aspect of stream entry is understanding how the process of rebirth occurs. So full faith in rebirth & kamma and stream entry are sort of at the same moment. And attaining nibbana can't happen without knowing about those things; partly it is those things that drive towards nibbana.
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Mr. Grimnasty
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Re: attain nibbana without knowing about kamma and rebirth

Post by Mr. Grimnasty »

reflection wrote:After stream entry there is no more doubt about the dhamma, including rebirth and kamma, because one important aspect of stream entry is understanding how the process of rebirth occurs.
Is that what the texts actually say, or are you offering your personal perspective here?
So full faith in rebirth & kamma and stream entry are sort of at the same moment.
If we're doing Classical Theravada here, then I don't think it makes much sense to say that two things "are sort of at the same moment". Either they're simultaneous in their arising and ceasing, like a citta with its cetasikas, or they overlap in time but exhibit different durations, like a citta with certain rupas, or they arise at totally different times.
So let's leave out the "sort of" and simply say "faith in rebirth & kamma and stream entry arise at the same moment."
But though the sentence is now intelligible, what it asserts seems to be at odds with Theravada teaching. Stream-entry according to the Abhidhamma is the arising of a noble path citta. Since this citta has Nibbana as its object, it can't also be taking the topic of kamma and rebirth as its object. Do you agree?
And attaining nibbana can't happen without knowing about those things; partly it is those things that drive towards nibbana.
Do you mean that accepting them as true and reflecting upon them gives rise to a sense of urgency (samvega) and that the latter then provides the impetus that drives one towards Nibbana?
If that is what you mean, what about a case where samvega is generated by something other than faith in (or knowledge about) kamma and rebirth? I mean the texts give us some lengthy lists of samvega-conducive thoughts, most of them having nothing to do with kamma and rebirth. Would you say in these cases that samvega generated by these things is insufficient? That only samvega generated by thinking about kamma and rebirth will deliver the goods? Or do you mean something else?

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reflection
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Re: attain nibbana without knowing about kamma and rebirth

Post by reflection »

I see it in the texts. For example: "one who sees the dhamma sees dependent origination" and how stream entry removes doubt.

But of course I don't know what may be sufficient for everybody. That'll differ per person. It's like those guidelines indicating how much to eat per day. Some people need more of particular things, some need less. Likewise, some may need to remind themselves of rebirth to generate effort, while others don't or not that much. But intertwined in seeing the four noble truths is how craving leads to rebirth, so at least that'll be an extra push.

Main thing is we indeed keep generating effort through whatever means. I also think to keep investigating rebirth will be beneficial.
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robertk
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Re: attain nibbana without knowing about kamma and rebirth

Post by robertk »

Dear Mr Grimm
You are clearly well-studied in Dhamma, and insightful to boot. I can certainly give some replies to your questions but seriously I think you could do just as well.
That being said I will add something as time permits in a day or two
robert
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