The Cart Simile

A forum for members who wish to develop a deeper understanding of the Pali Canon and associated Commentaries, which for discussion purposes are both treated as authoritative.

Moderator: Mahavihara moderator

The Cart Simile

Postby Cittasanto » Fri Oct 12, 2012 7:38 am

Hi All,
Does anyone remember where in the canon the cart is used in an example to illustrate the body as an assembly of parts?
similar to Bodhidharma in China, or sister Vajira here or am I simply remembering the Sister Vajira sutta?
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
User avatar
Cittasanto
 
Posts: 5855
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin

Re: The Cart Simile

Postby Ben » Fri Oct 12, 2012 7:59 am

Greetings Cittasanto,

Are you sure its not the chariot?
kind regards,

Ben
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.

Taṃ nadīhi vijānātha:
sobbhesu padaresu ca,
saṇantā yanti kusobbhā,
tuṇhīyanti mahodadhī.

Sutta Nipata 3.725


Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR
Buddhist Life Stories of Australia

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com
User avatar
Ben
Site Admin
 
Posts: 16292
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:49 am
Location: Land of the sleeping gods

Re: The Cart Simile

Postby Cittasanto » Fri Oct 12, 2012 8:07 am

Hi Ben,
chariot is probably used
but the only example I have found is the Bhikkhuni Vajira Sutta.
Just as when parts are put together, it can be called a chariot;
So when the Sensorial aggregates come together, conventionally there is a living being.

I couldn't find anything in the index on A2I but I am connected with my phone at the moment and I am not very good with it for searching at the moment :(
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
User avatar
Cittasanto
 
Posts: 5855
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin

Re: The Cart Simile

Postby Ben » Fri Oct 12, 2012 8:23 am

Hi Cittasanto,
I think it could be the same one.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vajira
kind regards,

Ben
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.

Taṃ nadīhi vijānātha:
sobbhesu padaresu ca,
saṇantā yanti kusobbhā,
tuṇhīyanti mahodadhī.

Sutta Nipata 3.725


Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR
Buddhist Life Stories of Australia

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com
User avatar
Ben
Site Admin
 
Posts: 16292
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:49 am
Location: Land of the sleeping gods

Re: The Cart Simile

Postby tsurezuregusa » Fri Oct 12, 2012 12:28 pm

Hi Cittasanto,

the Ven. Nagasena uses the chariot as a metaphor in the first chapter of the Milindapanha to explain the anatman-doctrine to the Greek king Menandros.

Kind regards,
Florian
My 'Mahasi Sasana Yeiktha' Facebook site
User avatar
tsurezuregusa
 
Posts: 26
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 8:04 pm
Location: Munich, Germany

Re: The Cart Simile

Postby Cittasanto » Fri Oct 12, 2012 3:26 pm

Ben wrote:Hi Cittasanto,
I think it could be the same one.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vajira
kind regards,

Ben

Hi Ben,
Yeah it is the same, I was sure the Buddha used this simile once, but obviously mistaken.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
User avatar
Cittasanto
 
Posts: 5855
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin

Re: The Cart Simile

Postby daverupa » Fri Oct 12, 2012 5:54 pm

Interesting implications, I should think.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
User avatar
daverupa
 
Posts: 4348
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm

Re: The Cart Simile

Postby rowyourboat » Fri Oct 12, 2012 10:20 pm

"Now I am frail, Ananda, old, aged, far gone in years. This is my eightieth year, and my life is spent. Even as an old cart, Ananda, is held together with much difficulty, so the body of the Tathagata is kept going only with supports.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .vaji.html



Even royal chariots
well-embellished
get run down,
and so does the body
succumb to old age.
But the Dhamma of the good
doesn't succumb to old age:
the good let the civilized know.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... ml#dhp-151

I know its not the same thing but I wondered if this was what you were referring to.

With metta

M
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha
rowyourboat
 
Posts: 1949
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:29 pm
Location: London, UK

Re: The Cart Simile

Postby daverupa » Fri Oct 12, 2012 10:41 pm

Thank you in any event; it's nice to have the cart 'simile' in this context, as opposed to the rather cognitive "sum of parts" version.

:meditate:
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
User avatar
daverupa
 
Posts: 4348
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm

Re: The Cart Simile

Postby Cittasanto » Fri Oct 12, 2012 11:14 pm

Hi tsurezuregusa,
that is the simile I was thinking of (or similar) but by the Buddha.
thanks for pointing in the direction.

Milinda: “I did not come, Sir, on foot, but on a chariot.”

Nagasena: “If you have come on a chariot, then please explain to me what a chariot is. Is the pole the chariot?”

Milinda: “No, reverend Sir!”

Nagasena: “Is then the axle the chariot?”

Milinda: “No, reverend Sir!”

Nagasena: “Is it then the wheels, or the framework, or the flag-staff, or the yoke, or the reins, or the goadstick?”

Milinda: “No, reverend Sir!”

Nagasena: “Then is it the combination of pole, axle, wheels, framework, flag-staff, yoke, reins, and goad?”

Milinda: “No, reverend Sir!”

Nagasena: “Then is this ‘chariot’ outside the combination of pole, axle, wheels, framework, flag-staff, yoke, reins, and goad?”

Milinda: “No, reverend Sir!”

Nagasena: “Then, ask as I may, I can discover no chariot at all. Just a mere sound is this ‘chariot’. But what is the real chariot? Your Majesty has told a lie, has spoken a falsehood! There really is no chariot! Your Majesty is the greatest king in the whole of India. Of whom then are you afraid, that you do not speak the truth?”
(To Assembly) “Now listen, you 500 Greeks, and 80,000 monks, this king Milinda tells me he has come in a chariot. But when asked to explain to me what a chariot is, he cannot establish its existence. How can one possibly approve of that?”
The five hundred Greeks thereupon applauded the Venerable Nagasena and said to King Milinda: “Now let your Majesty get out of this if you can!”
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
User avatar
Cittasanto
 
Posts: 5855
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin

Re: The Cart Simile

Postby theY » Sun Oct 14, 2012 6:53 am

Visuddhimagga Diṭṭhivisuddhiniddesa claim to that sutta, and have another about 12 similes in that niddesa.

http://books.google.co.th/books?id=B_UW ... &q&f=false
Lesson Relationship of Abhidhammatthasaṅgaha (10/31/2012)
http://tipitakanews.org/en/node/61
theY
 
Posts: 101
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2012 12:07 pm


Return to Classical Theravāda

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests