Does magga included in dukkha?

A forum for members who wish to develop a deeper understanding of the Pali Canon and associated Commentaries, which for discussion purposes are both treated as authoritative.

Moderator: Mahavihara moderator

Does magga included in dukkha?

Postby do1 » Fri Aug 17, 2012 1:14 pm

I heard opinion, that becasue it is said 'sabbe sankhara dukkha' and that sankhara include all phenomena except nibbana, so magga and different magga phalas also included in dukkha. Can this opinion be backed or refuted with authoritative sources? That sounds quite paradoxal that things like lokuttara cittani is suffering.
do1
 
Posts: 3
Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2010 1:48 am

Re: Does magga included in dukkha?

Postby daverupa » Fri Aug 17, 2012 1:29 pm

All that is felt is included in dukkha. In and of itself the Path is not nibbana; conducive thereto, but not to be clung to. There is sammanibbana, which is nibbana without the intention to enjoy it; that would be to conceive nibbana, per MN 1. The Dhamma-raft must be deposited on the far shore or set adrift, because it too is conditioned, despite being efficacious.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
User avatar
daverupa
 
Posts: 4272
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm

Re: Does magga included in dukkha?

Postby santa100 » Fri Aug 17, 2012 1:56 pm

MN 24 ( http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html ) uses the analogy of the 7 relay chariots to show the 7 stages of purification before one could reach Anupada-parinibbana. Bhikkhu Bodhi noted that even the 7th and last stage of nanadassanavisuddhi, being supramundane(lokuttara), is still "conditioned"(sankhata), thus none of these seven stages is Liberation itself. In short, the chariots are the means one must use to reach the destination, but they themselves are not the destination..
santa100
 
Posts: 1564
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:55 pm

Re: Does magga included in dukkha?

Postby Alex123 » Wed Aug 22, 2012 11:48 pm

Maggaphala leads to cessation of dukkha, but as long as 5 aggregates are, some form of dukkha still is. One can't be in phalasamapatti forever, it is still anicca.
What is anicca is dukkha.

Imho.
"dust to dust...."
User avatar
Alex123
 
Posts: 2915
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:32 pm

Re: Does magga included in dukkha?

Postby Hanzze » Tue Sep 25, 2012 3:33 am

theY wrote:Namatthu Ratanattayassa

Read this niyama before read my reply :
http://www.84000.org/tipitaka/dic/d_item.php?i=205
First is tīraṇapariññā-kicca. Second is pahāna-kicca. Third is sacchikiriyā-kicca. The last is bhāvanā-kicca.

---------------------Explanation------------------------------

All khandha, included 8 maggas are anicca, dukkha, and anatta that have tilakkhaṇa --aniccalakkhaṇa, dukkhalakkhaṇa, and anattalakkhaṇa.

However, the Buddha had taught tilakkhana to make us see dukkha-ariyasacca by doing tīraṇapariñākicca--vipassana meditation or you can call magga, that we must contemplation--observe, tilakkhana of all kandha until they all become anicca, dukkha, and anatta in your attitude (in sutta aphorism is "He regards whatever phenomena as inconstant, stressful,...,not-self"--AN 4.124 PTS: A ii 128).

But pubbbhāgamagga, that name lokiya-maggas, hadn't taught for that kicca. They have being to be bhāvanā-kicca. Till they couldn't usable to eradicate kilesa, then we could do pahana-kicca to them.

Another case, if maggas or any saṅkhāra can't attached by any kilesa, they will have tilaksana, accept dukkalakkhaṇa, but they are not dukkha-ariyasacca. In this case, maggas refer to lokuttara-magga.

End case, magga-cetasikas are not dukkha-vedanā. However, dukkha-vedanā can arise with magga-cetasika in magga-citta (maggacittuppāda).
Does a magga-cetasika realy cause vedana, or are they somehow side conditions which cause the turning on? And if a magga-cetasika realy condition vedana which kind and is that free of dukkha?
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
User avatar
Hanzze
 
Posts: 1906
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2010 12:47 pm
Location: Cambodia

Re: Does magga included in dukkha?

Postby theY » Tue Sep 25, 2012 3:40 am

^

I'm sorry, I have deleted that post before I read your reply.

This is a newer version...

Namatthu Ratanattayassa

Read this niyama before read my reply :
http://www.84000.org/tipitaka/dic/d_item.php?i=205
First is tīraṇapariññā-kicca. Second is pahāna-kicca. Third is sacchikiriyā-kicca. The last is bhāvanā-kicca.

--------------------------- Explanation ---------------------------

We have 4 dukkhas .-
1. dukkha-ariyasacca (paramattha)
2. dukkha-lakkhaṇa (puññatti)
3. dukkhas that have dukkha-lakkhaṇa, but some of them are dukkha-ariyasacca, and some of them are not (variety of words)
4. dukkha-vedanā-cetasika

And we have 3 maggas.-
1. 8 lokiya-magga-cetasikas
2. 8 lokuttara-magga-cetasikas
3. lokuttara-maggacittuppāda (citta + 36 lokuttara-magga-cetasika)

All khandha, included 8 maggas are anicca, dukkha, and anattā that have tilakkhaṇa --aniccalakkhaṇa, dukkhalakkhaṇa, and anattalakkhaṇa.

However, the Buddha had taught tilakkhaṇa to make us see dukkha-ariyasacca by doing tīraṇapariñā-kicca--vipassana meditation or you can call magga, that we must contemplation--observe, tilakkhana of all kandha until they all become anicca, dukkha, and anatta in your attitude (in sutta aphorism is "He regards whatever phenomena as inconstant, stressful,...,not-self"--AN 4.124 PTS: A ii 128).

But pubbbhāgamagga, that name lokiya-maggas, hadn't taught for that kicca. They have being to be bhāvanā-kicca. Till they couldn't usable to eradicate kilesa, then we could do pahana-kicca to them.

Another case, if maggas or any saṅkhāra can't attached by any kilesa, they will have tilaksana, accept dukkalakkhaṇa, but they are not dukkha-ariyasacca. In this case, maggas refer to lokuttara-magga.

End case, magga-cetasikas are not dukkha-vedanā-cetasika. However, dukkha-vedanā can arise together with magga-cetasika in magga-citta (maggacittuppāda).
Last edited by theY on Tue Sep 25, 2012 3:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
Lesson Relationship of Abhidhammatthasaṅgaha (10/31/2012)
http://tipitakanews.org/en/node/61
theY
 
Posts: 101
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2012 12:07 pm

Re: Does magga included in dukkha?

Postby theY » Tue Sep 25, 2012 3:55 am

Hanzze wrote:Does a magga-cetasika realy cause vedana, or are they somehow side conditions which cause the turning on? And if a magga-cetasika realy condition vedana which kind and is that free of dukkha?


arise with == born together == born, being, and die, at the same time
Lesson Relationship of Abhidhammatthasaṅgaha (10/31/2012)
http://tipitakanews.org/en/node/61
theY
 
Posts: 101
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2012 12:07 pm


Return to Classical Theravāda

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests