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Sutta supporting khanikavada (momentariness)

Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 7:07 am
by SamKR
Are there any Nikaya Suttas that support khanikavada (theory of momentariness)?

I am not asking about suttas on general impermanence; I am already aware of them. I am interested in suttas that talk about (or at least give hints) about momentariness (impermanence at its extreme)? I know Abhidhamma talks about it but I don't know if any Nikaya Suttas do.

Thanks a lot for your time.

:anjali:

Re: Sutta supporting khanikavada (momentariness)

Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 7:36 am
by cooran
Hello Sam,

I haven't had time to read this whole thread (64 posts) - but there may be some thing here:

Provenance of the notion of momentariness in the Theravada
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 38&start=0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

with metta
Chris

Re: Sutta supporting khanikavada (momentariness)

Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 7:43 am
by tiltbillings
cooran wrote:Hello Sam,

I haven't had time to read this whole thread (64 posts) - but there may be some thing here:

Provenance of the notion of momentariness in the Theravada
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 38&start=0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

with metta
Chris
I do believe that Ven Dhammanando had something to say on the subject: Are there any Nikaya Suttas that support khanikavada (theory of momentariness)? Mostly, I would say that one will not get much support for the idea here, but I'd ask Ven D about it.

Re: Sutta supporting khanikavada (momentariness)

Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 7:48 am
by Ben
tiltbillings wrote:I do believe that Ven Dhammanando had something to say on the subject: Are there any Nikaya Suttas that support khanikavada (theory of momentariness)? Mostly, I would say that one will not get much support for the idea here, but I'd ask Ven D about it.
If I am not mistaken, Ajahn is returning to his mountain locale and may not be online again until November.
Robertk may also be of help.
kind regards,

Ben

Re: Sutta supporting khanikavada (momentariness)

Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 7:55 am
by robertk
This sutta:

Guhatthaka-suttaniddeso
(Exposition of the Sutta of the Eightfold Mystery)

Translated by Andrew Olendzki.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .olen.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


1. "Life, personhood, pleasure and pain
- This is all that's bound together
In a single mental event- A moment that quickly takes place.

2. Even for the devas who endure
For 84,000 thousand kalpas
- Even those do not live the same
For any two moments of the mind.


3. What ceases for one who is dead,
Or for one who's still standing here,
Are all just the same heaps
- Gone, never to connect again.

4. The states which are vanishing now,
And those which will vanish some day,
Have characteristics no different
Than those which have vanished before.

5. With no production there's no birth;
With "becoming" present, one exists.
When grasped with the highest meaning,
The world is dead when the mind stops.

6. There's no hoarding what has vanished,
No piling up for the future;
Those who have been born are standing
Like a seed upon a needle.

7. The vanishing of all these states
That have become is not welcome,
Though dissolving phenomena stand
Uncombined through primordial time.

8. From the unseen, things come and go.
Glimpsed only as they're passing by;
Like lightning flashing in the sky
- They arise and then pass away."

Kathaṃ ṭhitiparittatāya appakaṃ jīvitaṃ? Atīte cittakkhaṇe jīvittha,
na jīvati na jīvissati; anāgate cittakkhaṇe jīvissati, na jīvati na jīvittha; paccuppanne cittakkhaṇe jīvati, na jīvittha na jīvissati.

“Jīvitaṃ attabhāvo ca, sukhadukkhā ca kevalā;
ekacittasamāyuttā, lahuso vattate khaṇo.
“Cullāsītisahassāni, kappā tiṭṭhanti ye marū;
natveva tepi jīvanti, dvīhi cittehi saṃyutā.
“Ye niruddhā marantassa, tiṭṭhamānassa vā idha;
sabbepi sadisā khandhā, gatā appaṭisandhikā.
“Anantarā ca ye bhaggā, ye ca bhaggā anāgatā;
tadantare niruddhānaṃ, vesamaṃ natthi lakkhaṇe.
“Anibbattena na jāto, paccuppannena jīvati;
cittabhaggā mato loko, paññatti paramatthiyā.
“Yathā ninnā pavattanti, chandena pariṇāmitā;
acchinnadhārā vattanti, saḷāyatanapaccayā.
“Anidhānagatā bhaggā, puñjo natthi anāgate;
nibbattā ye ca tiṭṭhanti, āragge sāsapūpamā.
“Nibbattānañca dhammānaṃ, bhaṅgo nesaṃ purakkhato;
palokadhammā tiṭṭhanti, purāṇehi amissitā.
“Adassanato āyanti, bhaṅgā gacchanti dassanaṃ;
vijjuppādova ākāse, uppajjanti vayanti cā”ti.

Evaṃ ṭhitiparittatāya appakaṃ jīvitaṃ.

Re: Sutta supporting khanikavada (momentariness)

Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 7:57 am
by tiltbillings
Ben wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:I do believe that Ven Dhammanando had something to say on the subject: Are there any Nikaya Suttas that support khanikavada (theory of momentariness)? Mostly, I would say that one will not get much support for the idea here, but I'd ask Ven D about it.
If I am not mistaken, Ajahn is returning to his mountain locale and may not be online again until November.
Bummer.

Re: Sutta supporting khanikavada (momentariness)

Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 7:59 am
by Ben
Yes, he mentioned on his facebook page last night. Though I am not sure exactly when he is going. He could have already gone for all I know.
kind regards,

Ben

Re: Sutta supporting khanikavada (momentariness)

Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:11 am
by cooran
Hello all,

Hope this isn't off-topic, again just a resource I came across, and not yet read:

The Buddhist Doctrine of Momentariness - A Survey of the Origins and Early Phase of this Doctrine up to Vasubandhu
http://www.scribd.com/doc/43691507/The- ... Vasubandhu" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

with metta
Chris

Re: Sutta supporting khanikavada (momentariness)

Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:43 am
by Ben
Dear all

Since Sam has asked for references from the suttas which support the notion of momentariness, I am moving this topic into the Classical Theravada Forum. To keep this topic tightly focused, for the purposes of discussion only sources from the Nikayas are considered authoritative.
Thanks for your cooperation

Ben

Re: Sutta supporting khanikavada (momentariness)

Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 12:13 am
by SamKR
Thanks everyone for your replies and for the links.
Cooran's link to past discussion and the book (thesis) is very useful.

Thanks robertk for Guhatthaka-suttaniddeso which, as pointed out by tiltbillings in the past thread, is a commentary. But I think it is authoritative as it is a part of Nikaya. I hope there might be similar others that talk about impermanence close to momentariness, suttas preferably.

Re: Sutta supporting khanikavada (momentariness)

Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 12:46 am
by retrofuturist
Greetings Sam,

Can I ask a question. When you're asking about "momentariness" are you asking in relation to "atomized" moments?
atomized - past participle, past tense of at·om·ize (Verb)
Verb:
Convert (a substance) into very fine particles or droplets.
Reduce (something) to atoms or other small distinct units.
... and by doing so, designating that which is delineable, bounded, and inherently differentiated and separated from other atomized moments?

Metta,
Retro. :)

Re: Sutta supporting khanikavada (momentariness)

Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 1:40 am
by SamKR
retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Sam,

Can I ask a question. When you're asking about "momentariness" are you asking in relation to "atomized" moments?
atomized - past participle, past tense of at·om·ize (Verb)
Verb:
Convert (a substance) into very fine particles or droplets.
Reduce (something) to atoms or other small distinct units.
... and by doing so, designating that which is delineable, bounded, and inherently differentiated and separated from other atomized moments?

Metta,
Retro. :)
Hello retro,

I am open to all usual definition of "momentariness" as found in Theravada (including "atomized" moments as you stated above).

Personally, I like to think momentariness as the instant process of being "on" and "off" (rising and falling) of individual discrete units in no time (or maybe in "Planck time"). The discrete units are identical (as long as they have the same underlying causes) but are disconnected in the sense that the previous unit does not directly cause the next one; although they are connected indirectly because they have the same underlying causes. These underlying causes themselves are in the process of momentary existence as described above.
I am not sure if my idea of momentariness is usual in Theravada, and I could be wrong, but I have reached this conclusion by pondering on the Buddha's words, and inferences from physics, and ideas from Vipassana tradition over years.

Re: Sutta supporting khanikavada (momentariness)

Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 1:47 am
by mikenz66
I'm not sure how "atomistic" it can be considered, but there are statements such as:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents? There is the case where a monk remains focused on arising & falling away with reference to the five clinging-aggregates: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its passing away. ...
that certainly suggests a certain rapidity.

Another sutta suggesting some rapidity and atomicity (one thing at a time).
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
But what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another. Just as a monkey, swinging through a forest wilderness, grabs a branch. Letting go of it, it grabs another branch. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. In the same way, what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another.
:anjali:
Mike

Re: Sutta supporting khanikavada (momentariness)

Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 2:24 am
by robertk
SamKR wrote:Thanks everyone for your replies and for the links.
Cooran's link to past discussion and the book (thesis) is very useful.

Thanks robertk for Guhatthaka-suttaniddeso which, as pointed out by tiltbillings in the past thread, is a commentary. But I think it is authoritative as it is a part of Nikaya. I hope there might be similar others that talk about impermanence close to momentariness, suttas preferably.
The idea that it is part of the Commentaries and not an actual sutta seems to have come from the translators innocent use of the word 'commentary' when describing Sariputta's exposition. If , in his preface, the modern translator had instead used the word "exposition' it would have been clearer.
So just to stress again, IT IS A SUTTA and not part of the Atthakatha (commentaries).

Re: Sutta supporting khanikavada (momentariness)

Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 2:31 am
by Ben
robertk wrote:
SamKR wrote:Thanks everyone for your replies and for the links.
Cooran's link to past discussion and the book (thesis) is very useful.

Thanks robertk for Guhatthaka-suttaniddeso which, as pointed out by tiltbillings in the past thread, is a commentary. But I think it is authoritative as it is a part of Nikaya. I hope there might be similar others that talk about impermanence close to momentariness, suttas preferably.
The idea that it is part of the Commentaries and not an actual sutta seems to have come from the translators innocent use of the word 'commentary' when describing Sariputta's exposition. If , in his preface, the modern translator had instead used the word "exposition' it would have been clearer.
So just to stress again, IT IS A SUTTA and not part of the Atthakatha (commentaries).
Thank you for the clarification, Robert and thanks also for sharing the sutta.
kind regards,

Ben