Kamma and its Ripening in the Abhidhamma

Discussion of Abhidhamma and related Commentaries
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kc2dpt
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Re: Kamma and its Ripening in the Abhidhamma

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I, too, feel an increased possibility of understanding this topic. Thank you everyone.
- Peter

Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
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robertk
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Re: Kamma and its Ripening in the Abhidhamma

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This topic continues here
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 623#p80623" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Alex123
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Re: Kamma and its Ripening in the Abhidhamma

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robertk wrote: Where does the sutta say that kamma conditioned the people to throw clods stones etc? They were doing daily chores like throwing out things and these hit the venerable 'accidently'.
1)
Sounds like a joke: A defendant in the trial says: "I didn't kill that person. He slipped and fell on the knife... And like that for 20 times!".

Did they suddenly become blind? How often do people accidentally pick up heavy rocks and throw at a monk who happened to be the killer (of their relatives maybe)?

The explanation is really unbelievable... Much more believable is that they recognized a (former) killer and wanted to punish him. Pure psychology. Nothing strange.

2)
An interesting similar question: If Angulimala's kamma caused him vipaka of being hit by rocks thrown by those people, did those people accumulate bad kamma of throwing at an Arahant?
simsapa
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Re: Kamma and its Ripening in the Abhidhamma

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In the Theravāda most things arise due to factors other than kamma. In this regard you'll find the Theravādin account of kamma rather different from what you're likely to have learned from Tibetan sources. The Theravāda was among the Indian Buddhist schools which went for "kammic minimalism", i.e. attributing only a rather narrow range of phenomena to kamma, whereas the Tibetans derived their conception of kamma from the "kammic maximalist" schools.
What are the commentarial or other sources in the tradition that make this clear? ("attributing only a rather narrow range of phenomena to kamma")
I speculate that in Theravada, the kamma is carried by the bhavanga citta from life to life, moment to moment, therefore any objects that don't have a citta cannot be described as having affected by kamma. But in Mahayana, in certain schools like Tibetan ones, I think they believe that all objects came from the mind and the external world is just a big and gigantic illusion, consequently, it can be understood why their doctrine is built upon "kamma affected everything or every objects" theory.
Source for the first past?
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Dhammanando
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Re: Kamma and its Ripening in the Abhidhamma

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simsapa wrote: Sat Dec 12, 2020 5:20 amWhat are the commentarial or other sources in the tradition that make this clear? ("attributing only a rather narrow range of phenomena to kamma")
Differences of opinion over what should be attributed to kamma and what shouldn't first seem to have cropped up at the Third Council. And so the principal Pali sources would be the Kathāvatthu and its commentary, where half a dozen or so of the Council's debates are on the subject: "Is X caused by kamma?" and with the Theravādin debater always arguing for a negative answer.
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
simsapa
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Re: Kamma and its Ripening in the Abhidhamma

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Thank you, Bhante. Do you think you could piece together a complete theory of kamma based on the suttas?

And what is your view of this?
I speculate that in Theravada, the kamma is carried by the bhavanga citta from life to life, moment to moment, therefore any objects that don't have a citta cannot be described as having affected by kamma.
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Dhammanando
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Re: Kamma and its Ripening in the Abhidhamma

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simsapa wrote: Sat Dec 12, 2020 4:07 pm Do you think you could piece together a complete theory of kamma based on the suttas?
I think the sutta teachings on kamma are complete in the sense that they suffice to impart all that one needs to know about wholesome and unwholesome actions, their causes and consequences, and about the way that leads beyond kamma.

They're not complete in the sense that they can provide an answer to every single query that might arise in the minds of those much given to speculative curiosity, but then nor is anything else.
simsapa wrote: Sat Dec 12, 2020 4:07 pmAnd what is your view of this?

I speculate that in Theravada, the kamma is carried by the bhavanga citta from life to life, moment to moment, therefore any objects that don't have a citta cannot be described as having affected by kamma.
The conclusion does happens to be factually correct, but the premise on which it's based isn't Theravada teaching but rather a modern scholar's conjecture as to how the Pali commentators might have grappled with the question of a kamma's ontological status in the interval between its performance and its ripening, if the question had interested them (which apparently it didn't).
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
simsapa
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Re: Kamma and its Ripening in the Abhidhamma

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Thanks, Bhante.
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Pabhankara
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Re: Kamma and its Ripening in the Abhidhamma

Post by Pabhankara »

Kiriyacitta is the only state in which we actually will make a difference for others. Not because of intention or kamma to help others but rather due to the fact that in that state things are preceived clearly without the delusion of the pleasant and unpleasant kilesas and this automatically reflects onto the world. In that state there is no kamma of intention but causes and conditions makes the precense of such a being serene, calming and purifying.

Kiriyacitta is in this sense beyond compassion, metta and mudita. It contains all three of them and is also fused with panja of the ignorance of the non ceasing kamma. This state of mind is experienced as a state in between ceasing and arising. And beings in this state experience a disattachment but peacefullness in relation to the wordly and are at the same time in the absolute awareness of the ongoing stream of perception of the world.
Last edited by Pabhankara on Thu Dec 24, 2020 8:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Eko Care
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Re: Kamma and its Ripening in the Abhidhamma

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Dhammanando wrote: Sun Dec 13, 2020 10:29 am
simsapa wrote: Sat Dec 12, 2020 4:07 pm Do you think you could piece together a complete theory of kamma based on the suttas?
I think the sutta teachings on kamma are complete in the sense that they suffice to impart all that one needs to know about wholesome and unwholesome actions, their causes and consequences, and about the way that leads beyond kamma.

They're not complete in the sense that they can provide an answer to every single query that might arise in the minds of those much given to speculative curiosity, but then nor is anything else.
A complete theory of kamma?
:reading:
yamadwipa
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Re: Kamma and its Ripening in the Abhidhamma

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