Before Nirvana Extremely painfull sensations.

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Re: Before Nirvana Extremely painfull sensations.

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Mar 16, 2011 7:13 am

legolas wrote:You say a bunch of guys and gals have "verified" it over 2500 years. Has it not been merely recited, written down and venerated - much like the bible. ...

Not at all. They claim to have verified it through personal experience.

You seem to be implying that thousands of ancient and modern Bhikkhus were mistaken in (or lied about) their experiences.

And that one or two modern Bhikkhus figured out the truth all by themselves...

:anjali:
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Re: Before Nirvana Extremely painfull sensations.

Postby legolas » Wed Mar 16, 2011 7:22 am

tiltbillings wrote:No anger, but I wonder if there is any real substance to your continual sniping at the Burmese vipassana practices.


If there is any substance or no substance to my argument that should be determined on the basis of my postings, not a personal attack on me. Obviously you would argue that there is no substance - in which case please make that argument.
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Re: Before Nirvana Extremely painfull sensations.

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Mar 16, 2011 7:31 am

legolas wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:No anger, but I wonder if there is any real substance to your continual sniping at the Burmese vipassana practices.


If there is any substance or no substance to my argument that should be determined on the basis of my postings, not a personal attack on me. Obviously you would argue that there is no substance - in which case please make that argument.
Actually, I am waiting for you to make an argument for your position.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Before Nirvana Extremely painfull sensations.

Postby legolas » Wed Mar 16, 2011 7:33 am

mikenz66 wrote:
legolas wrote:You say a bunch of guys and gals have "verified" it over 2500 years. Has it not been merely recited, written down and venerated - much like the bible. ...

Not at all. They claim to have verified it through personal experience.

You seem to be implying that thousands of ancient and modern Bhikkhus were mistaken in (or lied about) their experiences.

And that one or two modern Bhikkhus figured out the truth all by themselves...

:anjali:
Mike


I would certainly argue a degeneration of Dhamma since the Buddha's time and a systematic turning away from the words of the Buddha towards mere poetry (Mahayana) or extreme scholasticism (Theravada). If a few modern Bhikkhus are prepared to stand up against millenia old institutions, then I think all the more of them for it. I don't believe these modern Bhikkhu's are saying anything new, merely highlighting original teachings that have existed and been practiced since the Buddha'a time but which have been overshadowed by scholastic tradition & ritual.
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Re: Before Nirvana Extremely painfull sensations.

Postby legolas » Wed Mar 16, 2011 7:35 am

tiltbillings wrote:
legolas wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:No anger, but I wonder if there is any real substance to your continual sniping at the Burmese vipassana practices.


If there is any substance or no substance to my argument that should be determined on the basis of my postings, not a personal attack on me. Obviously you would argue that there is no substance - in which case please make that argument.
Actually, I am waiting for you to make an argument for your position.


Please comment on my posts and where you think I am mistaken.
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Re: Before Nirvana Extremely painfull sensations.

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Mar 16, 2011 8:10 am

legolas wrote:Please comment on my posts and where you think I am mistaken.


legolas wrote:. However the nanas explicitly state that pain is a fundamental base or stepping stone to nibbana,
Pain is an experience one will have as one practices. The question is, what does one do with it?

Please note - pain CAN arise during meditation, and it is the duty of the meditator to try and calm the the body and mind - not think of that pain as an actual attainment towards realising nibbana. We might as well stick a pin in our eye and observe the painful sensations, if we think that pain is a neccessary stage.


This is a more practical way of dealing with pain: http://www.knowbuddhism.info/2009/02/se ... sting.html

While pain is not necessarily a necessary experience in one's awakening, it is likely to be an inevitable experience. There is much that can be learned from pain. Also, there is no need to go looking for pain. Having a mind/body, one will have pain.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Before Nirvana Extremely painfull sensations.

Postby legolas » Wed Mar 16, 2011 9:03 am

tiltbillings wrote:
legolas wrote:Please comment on my posts and where you think I am mistaken.


legolas wrote:. However the nanas explicitly state that pain is a fundamental base or stepping stone to nibbana,
Pain is an experience one will have as one practices. The question is, what does one do with it?

Please note - pain CAN arise during meditation, and it is the duty of the meditator to try and calm the the body and mind - not think of that pain as an actual attainment towards realising nibbana. We might as well stick a pin in our eye and observe the painful sensations, if we think that pain is a neccessary stage.


This is a more practical way of dealing with pain: http://www.knowbuddhism.info/2009/02/se ... sting.html

While pain is not necessarily a necessary experience in one's awakening, it is likely to be an inevitable experience. There is much that can be learned from pain. Also, there is no need to go looking for pain. Having a mind/body, one will have pain.


I think I can agree with some of what you say except "the more practical way" this seems to involve dragging one's attention away from the internal process. As far as pain goes, facing pain down is certainly one way of dealing with it - personally I find the practice of releasing the pain and trying to intentionally direct the mind to calming the body/mind, a practice that fits with sutta instructions on meditation. This leaves one in a better position (through having a calm mind and tranquil body) to see arising and passing.

My main point was that the nanas explicitly state that pain is a neccessary part in awakening. It is a stage in the awakening process that I cannot find any evidence of within the suttas.
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Re: Before Nirvana Extremely painfull sensations.

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Mar 16, 2011 9:19 am

legolas wrote:My main point was that the nanas explicitly state that pain is a neccessary part in awakening.

You mean the link in the OP? I don't think that the ancient sources put it quite like that.

Nevertheless:
legolas wrote: It is a stage in the awakening process that I cannot find any evidence of within the suttas.

The Suttas do actually talk quite a lot about dukkha:
'This is dukkha... This is the origination of dukka... This is the cessation of dukkha... This is the way leading to the cessation of dukkha...

So it does seem to me that the direct understanding (experience) of dukkha is a rather essential part of the path.

:anjali:
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Re: Before Nirvana Extremely painfull sensations.

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Mar 16, 2011 9:20 am

legolas wrote: I think I can agree with some of what you say except "the more practical way" this seems to involve dragging one's attention away from the internal process.
It is simply a matter of paying attention without comment to what is happening in the mind/body process: In the seen, the seen . . . .

As far as pain goes, facing pain down is certainly one way of dealing with it - personally I find the practice of releasing the pain and trying to intentionally direct the mind to calming the body/mind, a practice that fits with sutta instructions on meditation. This leaves one in a better position (through having a calm mind and tranquil body) to see arising and passing.
It is not a matter of "facing down pain." Not by a long shot. It is a matter of paying attention to the pain one is experiencing. "Releasing the pain" means what? What is possible, as one's mindfulness and concentration develop, is paying attention to one's pain.

My main point was that the nanas explicitly state that pain is a neccessary part in awakening. It is a stage in the awakening process that I cannot find any evidence of within the suttas.
Using the OP link and the Mahasi Sayadaw link I gave, show us what you are saying is so.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Before Nirvana Extremely painfull sensations.

Postby PeterB » Wed Mar 16, 2011 9:25 am

tiltbillings wrote:And so the sniping comments and direct pokes at vipassana practice begin - again.

It might be worth comparing that text to this:

http://www.aimwell.org/Books/Mahasi/Pro ... gress.html

and a bit on pain in the Mahasi Sayadaw type practice:

http://www.knowbuddhism.info/2009/02/se ... sting.html

As far as the above linked text is concerned, it probably deserves to be read a little more carefully.

Since we have bodies and they are part of the vehicle of practice, pain is part of the practice.


I am not big on over regulation but I do wonder whether sniping and poking at Vipassana should not be considered a cause of disruption under the TOS. After all if every time there was a mention of Samatha or The Brahma Viharas it resulted in sniping and poking I think it would cause questions to be asked.
For some reason Vipassana seems to be fair game.
Usually this comes from those who attended one Vipassana retreat and didnt like it or have basic ideological problems with something they have no direct knowledge of.
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Re: Before Nirvana Extremely painfull sensations.

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Mar 16, 2011 9:49 am

Hi Peter,
PeterB wrote:I am not big on over regulation but I do wonder whether sniping and poking at Vipassana should not be considered a cause of disruption under the TOS. After all if every time there was a mention of Samatha or The Brahma Viharas it resulted in sniping and poking I think it would cause questions to be asked.
For some reason Vipassana seems to be fair game.
Usually this comes from those who attended one Vipassana retreat and didnt like it or have basic ideological problems with something they have no direct knowledge of.

Personally I think sniping or poking at anything is a bit silly. More coherent discussion backed up with good references would be nice.

We had a great example of a good discussion here:
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=7360
A Critique of Brahmavamso’s “The Jhanas”
Where members argued politely and coherently, with good references, sentences, and punctuation.

On the other end of the scale we have threads like the current one, or the video in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=33&t=7375&start=40#p117374

:anjali:
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Re: Before Nirvana Extremely painfull sensations.

Postby robertk » Wed Mar 16, 2011 9:57 am

mikenz66 wrote:
legolas wrote:You say a bunch of guys and gals have "verified" it over 2500 years. Has it not been merely recited, written down and venerated - much like the bible. ...

Not at all. They claim to have verified it through personal experience.

You seem to be implying that thousands of ancient and modern Bhikkhus were mistaken in (or lied about) their experiences.

And that one or two modern Bhikkhus figured out the truth all by themselves...

:anjali:
Mike

Do you have any quotes from either sutta or Commentary that say painful sensations are a prelude to nibbana.

Or are you only referring to the authenticty of the Patasam...?
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Re: Before Nirvana Extremely painfull sensations.

Postby robertk » Wed Mar 16, 2011 10:01 am

mikenz66 wrote:
legolas wrote:My main point was that the nanas explicitly state that pain is a neccessary part in awakening.

You mean the link in the OP? I don't think that the ancient sources put it quite like that.

Nevertheless:
legolas wrote: It is a stage in the awakening process that I cannot find any evidence of within the suttas.

The Suttas do actually talk quite a lot about dukkha:
'This is dukkha... This is the origination of dukka... This is the cessation of dukkha... This is the way leading to the cessation of dukkha...

So it does seem to me that the direct understanding (experience) of dukkha is a rather essential part of the path.

:
Mike


Have you heard of the three types of dukkha. It is sankhara dukkha that is Especially relevant to the eight fold path.
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Re: Before Nirvana Extremely painfull sensations.

Postby robertk » Wed Mar 16, 2011 10:05 am

legolas wrote:

My main point was that the nanas explicitly state that pain is a neccessary part in awakening. It is a stage in the awakening process that I cannot find any evidence of within the suttas.
in fact there are no Commentaries related to nanas that suggest painful feeling is necessary part of the awakening process. I haven't even been able to find the parts about fluttering eyelids, although these must be there I am sure..
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Re: Before Nirvana Extremely painfull sensations.

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Mar 16, 2011 10:05 am

robertk wrote:Do you have any quotes from either sutta or Commentary that say painful sensations are a prelude to nibbana.
Prelude. Is that what the two links say? Painful sensation is a good object of awareness in terms of insights seen from it. There is a reason that dukkha is the first Noble truth.

Or are you only referring to the authenticty of the Patasam...?
It is as authentic as the Abhidhamma Pitaka texts.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Before Nirvana Extremely painfull sensations.

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Mar 16, 2011 10:07 am

robertk wrote: I haven't even been able to find the parts about fluttering eyelids, although these must be there I am sure..
He sniped.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Before Nirvana Extremely painfull sensations.

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Mar 16, 2011 10:13 am

PeterB wrote:I am not big on over regulation but I do wonder whether sniping and poking at Vipassana should not be considered a cause of disruption under the TOS. After all if every time there was a mention of Samatha or The Brahma Viharas it resulted in sniping and poking I think it would cause questions to be asked.
For some reason Vipassana seems to be fair game.
Usually this comes from those who attended one Vipassana retreat and didnt like it or have basic ideological problems with something they have no direct knowledge of.
Discussing this at length in this thread would obviously be off-topic. Certainly people can voice here disagreements with the Burmese vipassana traditions. That is not the problem I am complaining about. It is the one-liners with no real discussion that constitutes an unnecessarily jejune behavior, adding nothing of substance to the discussion.

As Mike says: More coherent discussion backed up with good references would be nice.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Before Nirvana Extremely painfull sensations.

Postby legolas » Wed Mar 16, 2011 10:16 am

mikenz66 wrote:
legolas wrote:My main point was that the nanas explicitly state that pain is a neccessary part in awakening.

You mean the link in the OP? I don't think that the ancient sources put it quite like that.

Nevertheless:
legolas wrote: It is a stage in the awakening process that I cannot find any evidence of within the suttas.

The Suttas do actually talk quite a lot about dukkha:
'This is dukkha... This is the origination of dukka... This is the cessation of dukkha... This is the way leading to the cessation of dukkha...

So it does seem to me that the direct understanding (experience) of dukkha is a rather essential part of the path.

:anjali:
Mike


Dukkha is not synonyomous with pain.
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Re: Before Nirvana Extremely painfull sensations.

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Mar 16, 2011 10:18 am

legolas wrote:Dukkha is not synonyomous with pain.
And that is one of the direct insights - not just an intellectual construct - that one can see as pain is an object of mindfulness.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Before Nirvana Extremely painfull sensations.

Postby legolas » Wed Mar 16, 2011 10:24 am

tiltbillings wrote:
legolas wrote: I think I can agree with some of what you say except "the more practical way" this seems to involve dragging one's attention away from the internal process.
It is simply a matter of paying attention without comment to what is happening in the mind/body process: In the seen, the seen . . . .

As far as pain goes, facing pain down is certainly one way of dealing with it - personally I find the practice of releasing the pain and trying to intentionally direct the mind to calming the body/mind, a practice that fits with sutta instructions on meditation. This leaves one in a better position (through having a calm mind and tranquil body) to see arising and passing.
It is not a matter of "facing down pain." Not by a long shot. It is a matter of paying attention to the pain one is experiencing. "Releasing the pain" means what? What is possible, as one's mindfulness and concentration develop, is paying attention to one's pain.

My main point was that the nanas explicitly state that pain is a neccessary part in awakening. It is a stage in the awakening process that I cannot find any evidence of within the suttas.
Using the OP link and the Mahasi Sayadaw link I gave, show us what you are saying is so.


Using the link from the original post...............

"It should be noted that the clear realization of impermanence is a specific characteristic of the Sammasana-ñana, and it means that the meditator will face many painful sensations."

I actually refered to this in a previous post.
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