retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Darwid,
What do these epithets in the aforementioned sutta mean to you then... "the Tathagata, the Arahant, the Perfectly Enlightened One"
What about "namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa" (Honour to the Blessed One, the Arahant, the fully Enlightened One.)?
If it disturbs you that the Buddha is an Arahant, perhaps you might find more alignment with your views at...
Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum)
http://www.dharmawheel.net/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Metta,
Retro.
First of all, it doesn't affect me at all whether Tathagata = Arahant or Tathagata is not the same with Arahant. This is just for the sake of discussion.
Assuming nobody knows who is Tathagata, Arahant, and Perfectly Enlightened One.
When I see the structure of the sentences of
""Bhikkhus, the Tathagata, the Arahant, the Perfectly Enlightened One, liberated by nonclinging through revulsion towards form (feeling, perception, volitional formations, and consciousness), through its fading away and cessation is called a perfectly Enlightened One. A bhikkhu liberated by wisdom, liberated by nonclinging through revulsion towards form (feeling, perception, volitional formations, and consciousness), through its fading away and cessation is called one liberated by wisdom."
To me it is more likely similar with this:
The Doctor, The Engineer, The Human, xxxx is called a Human. An athlete who can run, xxxx, is called the one who can run.
Simply sharing same quality inside xxxx doesn't mean The Doctor = The Engineer = The Human.
They share ONLY specific quality to be able to called them Doctor, The Engineer, or the Human.
Similarly, because they have "liberated by nonclinging through revulsion towards form (feeling, perception, volitional formations, and consciousness), through its fading away and cessation", they are qualified to be called Tathagatha, Arahant, the Perfectly Enlightened One, or A Bhikku liberated by wisdom.
IT doesn't imply that Tathagatha = Arahant = Perfectly Enlightened One = Bhikku liberated by Wisdom.
I found there are a lot of weird things if I assume Tathagata = Arahant.
1. During buddha's life, a lot of his students have achieve arahant while they still alive. If Tathagata = Arahant, it mean their view or knowlede is ABSOLUTY similar with the Buddha. Why they still asked Buddha? Do you think they want to test the knowledge of buddha whether their knowledge is the same the student or not?
2. Why NONE of Pali text mentioned Arahant Sakyamuni and none of them mentioned Buddha Sariputta? If you think they are the same, why do you need this word, Arahant and Buddha. Please show me if you find one.
3. Like you mentioned "namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa" (Honour to the Blessed One, the Arahant, the fully Enlightened One.)? If Buddha = Arahant, why we don't just mention namo tassa bhagavato ONLY or namo arahato ONLY, or namo Samma Sambuddhasa ONLY? Do you think it is nice to have long statement saying the same thing?
4. Why you don't take refuge or going for refuge to Arahant, Dhamma, and Sangha, instead Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha, if they are same? Will you say it loud in your temple? Dare to do it, just to test they are same when they ask you?
When you go through these, you will find many contradictions and feel weird thing.
LAstly, it doesn't matter whether Buddha = Arahant or Buddha is not Arahant. We won't affect enlightenement path.
I just found for the sake of definition, it may be benefial if we know the EXACT definition through these contradictions.