little lies, big lies

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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tiltbillings
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little lies, big lies

Post by tiltbillings »

Death: HUMANS NEED FANTASY TO *BE* HUMAN. TO BE THE PLACE WHERE THE FALLING ANGEL MEETS THE RISING APE.

Susan: With tooth fairies? Hogfathers? [Santa Clauses]

Death: YES. AS PRACTICE, YOU HAVE TO START OUT LEARNING TO BELIEVE THE LITTLE LIES.

Susan: So we can believe the big ones?

Death: YES. JUSTICE, MERCY, DUTY. THAT SORT OF THING.

Susan: They're not the same at all.

Death: YOU THINK SO? THEN TAKE THE UNIVERSE AND GRIND IT DOWN TO THE FINEST POWDER, AND SIEVE IT THROUGH THE FINEST SIEVE, AND THEN SHOW ME ONE ATOM OF JUSTICE, ONE MOLECULE OF MERCY. AND YET, YOU TRY TO ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD. AS IF THERE IS SOME, SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE, BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED.

Susan: But people have got to believe that, or what's the point?

Death: YOU NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?

-- Hogfather by Terry Pratchett
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
plwk
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Re: little lies, big lies

Post by plwk »

Does the above apply to the Buddhadasa wallas? :tongue:
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tiltbillings
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Re: little lies, big lies

Post by tiltbillings »

plwk wrote:Does the above apply to the Buddhadasa wallas? :tongue:
The real question might be a bit different than that.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Kim OHara
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Re: little lies, big lies

Post by Kim OHara »

Don't let his chosen genre fool you - Terry Pratchett asks some good questions. Those who don't know his work might like to try a tiny sample of it: http://www.au.lspace.org/books/dawcn/dawcn-english.html.

:namaste:
Kim
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Ben
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Re: little lies, big lies

Post by Ben »

I actually heard an interview with him on public radio a few months ago on the subject of his alzheimers (I think).
It was one of the more intelligent interviews I have heard for awhile, and very insightful.
kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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m0rl0ck
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Re: little lies, big lies

Post by m0rl0ck »

Kim O'Hara wrote:Don't let his chosen genre fool you - Terry Pratchett asks some good questions. Those who don't know his work might like to try a tiny sample of it: http://www.au.lspace.org/books/dawcn/dawcn-english.html.

:namaste:
Kim
That was fun ty for the link. I havent read any Terry Prachett in years.
“The truth knocks on the door and you say, "Go away, I'm looking for the truth," and so it goes away. Puzzling.” ― Robert M. Pirsig
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tiltbillings
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Re: little lies, big lies

Post by tiltbillings »

m0rl0ck wrote:
Kim O'Hara wrote:Don't let his chosen genre fool you - Terry Pratchett asks some good questions. Those who don't know his work might like to try a tiny sample of it: http://www.au.lspace.org/books/dawcn/dawcn-english.html.

:namaste:
Kim
That was fun ty for the link. I havent read any Terry Prachett in years.
Actually, it might be interesting to consider the OP in terms of the Buddha's teachings.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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kirk5a
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Re: little lies, big lies

Post by kirk5a »

tiltbillings wrote:Death: YOU THINK SO? THEN TAKE THE UNIVERSE AND GRIND IT DOWN TO THE FINEST POWDER, AND SIEVE IT THROUGH THE FINEST SIEVE, AND THEN SHOW ME ONE ATOM OF JUSTICE, ONE MOLECULE OF MERCY.

I don't think the Buddha defined mercy, let's say "compassion" in terms of atoms and molecules. I'd ask Mr. "Death" here how it is he came to the view that if something cannot be shown as an atom or molecule, it is fictional.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
chownah
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Re: little lies, big lies

Post by chownah »

kirk5a wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Death: YOU THINK SO? THEN TAKE THE UNIVERSE AND GRIND IT DOWN TO THE FINEST POWDER, AND SIEVE IT THROUGH THE FINEST SIEVE, AND THEN SHOW ME ONE ATOM OF JUSTICE, ONE MOLECULE OF MERCY.

I don't think the Buddha defined mercy, let's say "compassion" in terms of atoms and molecules. I'd ask Mr. "Death" here how it is he came to the view that if something cannot be shown as an atom or molecule, it is fictional.

"Monks, I will teach you the All. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
chownah
alan
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Re: little lies, big lies

Post by alan »

Tilt: Pratchett is a clever guy. I've enjoyed his books. But.. I don't get what you are trying to say here.
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kirk5a
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Re: little lies, big lies

Post by kirk5a »

chownah wrote:
kirk5a wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Death: YOU THINK SO? THEN TAKE THE UNIVERSE AND GRIND IT DOWN TO THE FINEST POWDER, AND SIEVE IT THROUGH THE FINEST SIEVE, AND THEN SHOW ME ONE ATOM OF JUSTICE, ONE MOLECULE OF MERCY.

I don't think the Buddha defined mercy, let's say "compassion" in terms of atoms and molecules. I'd ask Mr. "Death" here how it is he came to the view that if something cannot be shown as an atom or molecule, it is fictional.

"Monks, I will teach you the All. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
chownah

And what point are you making by referring to this teaching? That the Buddha was a materialist? That compassion is a fiction (lie) according to the Buddha also? Or what.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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tiltbillings
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Re: little lies, big lies

Post by tiltbillings »

kirk5a wrote: And what point are you making by referring to this teaching? That the Buddha was a materialist? That compassion is a fiction (lie) according to the Buddha also? Or what.
Where is compassion?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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kirk5a
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Re: little lies, big lies

Post by kirk5a »

tiltbillings wrote:Where is compassion?
Are you asking me to describe it in terms of "the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas." ?
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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tiltbillings
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Re: little lies, big lies

Post by tiltbillings »

kirk5a wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Where is compassion?
Are you asking me to describe it in terms of "the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas." ?
The question is, in term of what Death said, where is compassion or wisdom?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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kirk5a
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Re: little lies, big lies

Post by kirk5a »

tiltbillings wrote:The question is, in term of what Death said, where is compassion or wisdom?
I don't accept the terms of Death's reduction. Ever helped anyone in need?
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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