little lies, big lies

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little lies, big lies

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Aug 08, 2011 5:07 am

Death: HUMANS NEED FANTASY TO *BE* HUMAN. TO BE THE PLACE WHERE THE FALLING ANGEL MEETS THE RISING APE.

Susan: With tooth fairies? Hogfathers? [Santa Clauses]

Death: YES. AS PRACTICE, YOU HAVE TO START OUT LEARNING TO BELIEVE THE LITTLE LIES.

Susan: So we can believe the big ones?

Death: YES. JUSTICE, MERCY, DUTY. THAT SORT OF THING.

Susan: They're not the same at all.

Death: YOU THINK SO? THEN TAKE THE UNIVERSE AND GRIND IT DOWN TO THE FINEST POWDER, AND SIEVE IT THROUGH THE FINEST SIEVE, AND THEN SHOW ME ONE ATOM OF JUSTICE, ONE MOLECULE OF MERCY. AND YET, YOU TRY TO ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD. AS IF THERE IS SOME, SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE, BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED.

Susan: But people have got to believe that, or what's the point?

Death: YOU NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?

-- Hogfather by Terry Pratchett
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: little lies, big lies

Postby plwk » Mon Aug 08, 2011 5:19 am

Does the above apply to the Buddhadasa wallas? :tongue:
Bhikkhus, if you develop and make much this one thing,
it invariably leads to weariness, cessation, appeasement, realization and extinction.
What is it? It is recollecting the Enlightened One.
If this single thing is recollected and made much,
it invariably leads to weariness, cessation, appeasement, realization and extinction.

Anguttara-Nikaya: Ekanipata: Ekadhammapali: Pañhamavagga
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Re: little lies, big lies

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Aug 08, 2011 5:23 am

plwk wrote:Does the above apply to the Buddhadasa wallas? :tongue:
The real question might be a bit different than that.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: little lies, big lies

Postby Kim OHara » Mon Aug 08, 2011 5:46 am

Don't let his chosen genre fool you - Terry Pratchett asks some good questions. Those who don't know his work might like to try a tiny sample of it: http://www.au.lspace.org/books/dawcn/dawcn-english.html.

:namaste:
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Re: little lies, big lies

Postby Ben » Mon Aug 08, 2011 7:58 am

I actually heard an interview with him on public radio a few months ago on the subject of his alzheimers (I think).
It was one of the more intelligent interviews I have heard for awhile, and very insightful.
kind regards

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Re: little lies, big lies

Postby m0rl0ck » Tue Aug 09, 2011 3:22 pm

Kim O'Hara wrote:Don't let his chosen genre fool you - Terry Pratchett asks some good questions. Those who don't know his work might like to try a tiny sample of it: http://www.au.lspace.org/books/dawcn/dawcn-english.html.

:namaste:
Kim


That was fun ty for the link. I havent read any Terry Prachett in years.
Joshu was asked,
"When a man comes to you with nothing,
what would you say to him ?"
Joshu replied, "Throw it away!"
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Re: little lies, big lies

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Aug 09, 2011 10:39 pm

m0rl0ck wrote:
Kim O'Hara wrote:Don't let his chosen genre fool you - Terry Pratchett asks some good questions. Those who don't know his work might like to try a tiny sample of it: http://www.au.lspace.org/books/dawcn/dawcn-english.html.

:namaste:
Kim


That was fun ty for the link. I havent read any Terry Prachett in years.
Actually, it might be interesting to consider the OP in terms of the Buddha's teachings.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: little lies, big lies

Postby kirk5a » Tue Aug 09, 2011 11:44 pm

tiltbillings wrote:Death: [b]YOU THINK SO? THEN TAKE THE UNIVERSE AND GRIND IT DOWN TO THE FINEST POWDER, AND SIEVE IT THROUGH THE FINEST SIEVE, AND THEN SHOW ME ONE ATOM OF JUSTICE, ONE MOLECULE OF MERCY.

I don't think the Buddha defined mercy, let's say "compassion" in terms of atoms and molecules. I'd ask Mr. "Death" here how it is he came to the view that if something cannot be shown as an atom or molecule, it is fictional.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: little lies, big lies

Postby chownah » Wed Aug 10, 2011 2:47 am

kirk5a wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Death: [b]YOU THINK SO? THEN TAKE THE UNIVERSE AND GRIND IT DOWN TO THE FINEST POWDER, AND SIEVE IT THROUGH THE FINEST SIEVE, AND THEN SHOW ME ONE ATOM OF JUSTICE, ONE MOLECULE OF MERCY.

I don't think the Buddha defined mercy, let's say "compassion" in terms of atoms and molecules. I'd ask Mr. "Death" here how it is he came to the view that if something cannot be shown as an atom or molecule, it is fictional.

"Monks, I will teach you the All. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
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Re: little lies, big lies

Postby alan » Wed Aug 10, 2011 2:54 am

Tilt: Pratchett is a clever guy. I've enjoyed his books. But.. I don't get what you are trying to say here.
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Re: little lies, big lies

Postby kirk5a » Wed Aug 10, 2011 3:11 am

chownah wrote:
kirk5a wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Death: [b]YOU THINK SO? THEN TAKE THE UNIVERSE AND GRIND IT DOWN TO THE FINEST POWDER, AND SIEVE IT THROUGH THE FINEST SIEVE, AND THEN SHOW ME ONE ATOM OF JUSTICE, ONE MOLECULE OF MERCY.

I don't think the Buddha defined mercy, let's say "compassion" in terms of atoms and molecules. I'd ask Mr. "Death" here how it is he came to the view that if something cannot be shown as an atom or molecule, it is fictional.

"Monks, I will teach you the All. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
chownah

And what point are you making by referring to this teaching? That the Buddha was a materialist? That compassion is a fiction (lie) according to the Buddha also? Or what.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: little lies, big lies

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Aug 10, 2011 4:05 am

kirk5a wrote:And what point are you making by referring to this teaching? That the Buddha was a materialist? That compassion is a fiction (lie) according to the Buddha also? Or what.
Where is compassion?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: little lies, big lies

Postby kirk5a » Wed Aug 10, 2011 4:15 am

tiltbillings wrote:Where is compassion?

Are you asking me to describe it in terms of "the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas." ?
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: little lies, big lies

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Aug 10, 2011 4:21 am

kirk5a wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Where is compassion?

Are you asking me to describe it in terms of "the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas." ?
The question is, in term of what Death said, where is compassion or wisdom?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: little lies, big lies

Postby kirk5a » Wed Aug 10, 2011 4:26 am

tiltbillings wrote:The question is, in term of what Death said, where is compassion or wisdom?

I don't accept the terms of Death's reduction. Ever helped anyone in need?
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: little lies, big lies

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Aug 10, 2011 4:30 am

kirk5a wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:The question is, in term of what Death said, where is compassion or wisdom?

I don't accept the terms of Death's reduction. Ever helped anyone in need?
So, you are saying compassion is an existing thing out there somewhere?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: little lies, big lies

Postby kirk5a » Wed Aug 10, 2011 4:35 am

tiltbillings wrote:So, you are saying compassion is an existing thing out there somewhere?

I'm asking whether you have compassion or not. If not, that's interesting. If yes, "where is it"?
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: little lies, big lies

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Aug 10, 2011 4:38 am

kirk5a wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:So, you are saying compassion is an existing thing out there somewhere?

I'm asking whether you have compassion or not. If not, that's interesting. If yes, "where is it"?
Actually, it was and is my question to you, where is it?

Maybe Death's statement, 'YOU NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?' is to the point.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: little lies, big lies

Postby kirk5a » Wed Aug 10, 2011 4:46 am

tiltbillings wrote:Actually, it was and is my question to you, where is it?

Maybe Death's statement, 'YOU NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?' is to the point.

To... what point? Compassion is an untruth that we need to "believe in" in order for it to be?

As far as "where" it is - I would say it is an aspect of the mind. Do you think it is a lie?
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: little lies, big lies

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Aug 10, 2011 4:51 am

kirk5a wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Actually, it was and is my question to you, where is it?

Maybe Death's statement, 'YOU NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?' is to the point.

To... what point? Compassion is an untruth that we need to "believe in" in order for it to be?

As far as "where" it is - I would say it is an aspect of the mind. Do you think it is a lie?
It is a lie that it is a self-existant thingie that is part ofthe universe, and it "becomes" because we bring it about.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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