the great vegetarian debate

[Alex123]

It is relevant because after I replied to your post explaining that your nutrition information was outdated, you asked me whose information I was giving to you. The URL I provided is your answer, it takes you to a link on Wikipedia explaining what I explained, but with refernces to the American Dietetic Association.

I don't remember saying here that:
-one has to get all essential amino-acids in ONE meal, rather than during the day
- one can't get full protein from vegetarian sources (one can).

[Jhana4]

You wrote that proteins needed to be balanced. That is out of date with the modern view that amino acids don't have to be intentionally complimented if a person is living off anything other than the worst of food. I have no desire to quibble, so I will wish you a good weekend.

[Alex123]

You wrote that proteins needed to be balanced.

But not necessarily within one meal. Protein needs to be complete (balanced amino acids).

If we check Bioavailability index and PDCAAS values, animal derived protein is typically better than vegetarian sources of protein.
The only contender is soy. But there is big controversy with it because soy is mostly GM, and might affect hormones in the wrong way.

Animal protein is also more similar (amino-acid ratios) to human flesh than seeds, nuts, fruits and vegetables. So in that sense it can also be more fitting for human body. Of course the body can go an extra step and convert vegetarian sources of protein into human flesh, and jet engine might still be able to use inferior (for it) fuel. But the health might not be optimum.

[reflection]

How is that relevant to our discussion?

Yes, it seems possible (don't know if it is as optimum) to combine certain sources of protein in the same day, not same meal, and still be ok.

Many vegetarian sources contain very little amount of protein, so one would have to eat pounds and pounds of them just to get sufficient amount of protein.

For example if one eats 100g of meat, one would need to eat >4.4 POUNDS of carrots to get the same amount of protein, and incomplete protein at that!

Obviously one can see problems in eating so much. 100g (3.5 ounces) of meat is much easier to digest than 4.4 pounds of carrots/etc, and less taxing on the body.

And if one eats 100g of carrots, one would need to eat 15 kilos of meat to get the same amount of vitamine A. Now beat that.

As you see, such comparisons don't make sense. Vegetarians don't just eat carrots. Cheese, beans, tofu, nuts things like that have high protein levels.

[Alex123]

And if one eats 100g of carrots, one would need to eat 15 kilos of meat to get the same amount of vitamine A. Now beat that.

A little pill (or few of them) containing Vitamin A could solve the deficiency. Unfortunately there is no little pill for entire daily protein need.

Furthermore, I do recommend eating organic vegetables, greens as addition to meat, etc. The issue we are talking here is about protein amount and digestibility.

[reflection]

I understand, but my point is then you should make fair comparisons and not carrots versus meat which is nonsense. A balanced vegetarian diet should pose no problems with protein for the average person. Of course if you only eat carrots you will get problems but then who does that?

[Alex123]

I understand, but my point is then you should make fair comparisons and not carrots versus meat which is nonsense.

Why not eat them both?

A balanced vegetarian diet should pose no problems with protein for the average person.

Correct. But it does require more know-how to get all the nutrients (omega-3s, complete AA, B12, saturated fat, etc) that are more rare in vegetarian diets than in omnivore diets. There is also an issue that BV and PDCAAS values from plant based diets is generally lower than from animal derived sources. Some vegetarians correctly point out the antibiotics and such substances that are used in normal commercial meat, but what about pesticide use and GM in vegetarian food? Mass production of meat has its drawbacks, but so are plants.

[reflection]

Pesticides and GM also end up in meat because the animals also end up eating soy and corn and stuff like that. So those hormone changes you are talking about may well happen in the meat and so I don't think that is a good argument to eat meat instead of other things.

Luckily I live in Europe where GM regulation is very strict. Also vegetables without nasty pesticides used is easy to find. Of course, meat without all those nasty things can be found as well so I'm not advocating vegetarian is the only way to be free off it, but I think your argument is sort of lacking that if you are a vegetarian you could not avoid nasty stuff? I don't think that's true. In fact I think you have more control over what you eat because the base products often are so simple and unprocessed.

[seeker242]

I don't think it's an arguable point as there is no scientific evidence to back that statement up. Protein is simply amino acids combinations.

There are these issues:
Protein should have balanced, complete amino-acid profile, and easily digested.

Even though some nuts and seeds do contain all essential amino-acids, I wonder how easy it is for the body to absorb them.

I would agree that this information is not correct or presents an inaccurate picture. The PDCAAS is considered "the preferred 'best'" method to determine protein quality by the US Food and Drug Administration (FDA) and the Food and Agricultural Organization of the United Nations/World Health Organization. Other methods are considered by these organizations to be inferior evaluation methods. Unfortunately your chart does not show what method was used to come to those numbers or it's source. I would be intetested in seeing that if someone knows. Here are the PDCAAS numbers. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protein_Di ... Acid_Score

1.00 casein (milk protein)
1.00 egg white
1.00 soy protein
1.00 whey (milk protein)
0.99 mycoprotein (Quorn, etc.)
0.92 beef
0.91 soybeans
0.78 chickpeas
0.76 fruits
0.75 black beans
0.73 vegetables
0.70 Other legumes
0.59 cereals and derivatives
0.52 peanuts
0.42 whole wheat

As you can see from the above chart, soy and mycoprotein are both superior quality to beef. I'm curious as to where amaranth, buckwheat, quinoa, and spirulina would fall on the above chart. I would not be surprised if any of them scored above beef also.

Experts these days agree with the below.

"With three important exceptions, there is little danger of protein deficiency in a plant food diet. The exceptions are diets very heavily dependent on [1] fruit or on [2] some tubers, such as sweet potatoes or cassava, or on [3] junk food (refined flours, sugars, and fat). Fortunately, relatively few people in the world try to survive on diets in which these foods are virtually the sole source of calories. In all other diets, if people are getting enough calories, they are virtually certain of getting enough protein."

As far as "complete amino acid profile" or "complete protein", the "incomplete" label is misleading for many, many foods. Regular potatoes are considered "incomplete protein". However, potatoes contain ALL essential amino acids, just in different quantities. If you ate 2,500 calories of nothing but potatoes every day, you will still be exceeding the recommendation for ALL essential amino acids.

Even if you ate nothing but potatoes, every day, you would be lacking nothing with regards to protein quality or quantity. Potatoes are just one example.

[daverupa]

Related:

The History and Social Influence of the Potato, by Redcliffe N. Salaman.

Great read.

[Ceisiwr]

Related:

The History and Social Influence of the Potato, by Redcliffe N. Salaman.

Great read.

Sorry that title made me laugh lol

[Alex123]

BV is one of tools to measure protein quality. But even with PDCAAS, please not that milk & egg protein are higher than vegetarian sources provided.
Also, soy is so controversial that I don't consider it. Some other sources such as quinoa doesn't have that much protein as animal sources.

1.00 casein (milk protein)
1.00 egg white
1.00 soy protein
1.00 whey (milk protein)
0.99 mycoprotein (Quorn, etc.)
0.92 beef
0.91 soybeans
0.78 chickpeas
0.76 fruits
0.75 black beans
0.73 vegetables
0.70 Other legumes
0.59 cereals and derivatives
0.52 peanuts
0.42 whole wheat

As you can see from the above chart, soy and mycoprotein are both superior quality to beef. I'm curious as to where amaranth, buckwheat, quinoa, and spirulina would fall on the above chart. I would not be surprised if any of them scored above beef also.

You are correct about soy, except that it might have bad health side effects, especially for men. I am all for vegetarianism in principle. But unfortunately real life is harsh...


As for quinoa, apparently it has only 4 grams of protein per 100g of it. Meat has 20+.
http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/cer ... ta/10352/2

So if one needs 100-200g of protein per day... One would need 2.5-5 KG (5.5 - 12.1 pounds) of it per day...

[Ceisiwr]

Some thoughts

Humans can be perfectly healthy eating meat as well as not eating it


That some people only have the choice of eating meat

That if enough people stopped eating meat, the suffering of animals would diminish

However if someone goes for a meal at someone's house and is offered a slice of turkey as part of the meal, they should eat it. Otherwise they are clinging to the ideal of vegetarianism instead of practicing equanimity.

[Aloka]

...However if someone goes for a meal at someone's house and is offered a slice of turkey as part of the meal, they should eat it.

If I'm invited for a meal, I always tell people in advance that I'm a vegetarian. I'm also happy to eat the vegetable side dishes or to take a veggie burger with me if there's no other alternative. Its never been a problem and its not necessary to eat the meat.

Otherwise they are clinging to the ideal of vegetarianism instead of practicing equanimity.

I disagree

[Ceisiwr]

...However if someone goes for a meal at someone's house and is offered a slice of turkey as part of the meal, they should eat it.

If I'm invited for a meal, I always tell people in advance that I'm a vegetarian. I'm also happy to eat the vegetable side dishes or to take a veggie burger with me if there's no other alternative. Its never been a problem and its not necessary to eat the meat.

Otherwise they are clinging to the ideal of vegetarianism instead of practicing equanimity.

I disagree

Strange to find a topic we disagree on lol


But if someone offers you meat, why would you decline if it wasnt for holding to a doctrine?

I think thats why the Buddha did eat meat if it was offered and why vegetarianism isnt required for enlightenment