the great vegetarian debate

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby K.Dhamma » Wed Dec 18, 2013 5:14 pm

many thanks :)
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Alex123 » Thu Dec 19, 2013 3:24 am

K.Dhamma wrote: Lately I have removed red meat from my meals almost exclusively. However, I find myself becoming hypoglycemic and very "drained" if I go 2-3 days without meat. So, I slowed down and I now eat very modest with meat.


Then you need to examine your body's functioning and eat what is healthy for you. I am not sure if ruining your health just to follow some beliefs is the right thing to do. Vegetarianism is NOT the middle way.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby lyndon taylor » Thu Dec 19, 2013 3:43 am

From historical records the Buddha was mostly vegetarian, but I guess that's not the middle way, perhaps you can tell us just what the middle way is??

Also the Buddhas teaching to reduce or eliminate suffering is not supposed to be applied selfishly just to ourselves but to all sentient beings, even I dare say those animals on your plate. Doctors have determined that a healthy vegetarian or even vegan diet (with B12) provides all the nutrients and proteins needed to survive and be healthier not just as healthy as meat eaters, so when some one says they feel healthier eating meat, you have to wonder if some of that effect might be psychological, or if they are just eating an unbalanced vegetarian diet.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community that has so generously given me so much, sincerely former monk John
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Sanjay PS » Thu Dec 19, 2013 6:11 am

Alex123 wrote:
K.Dhamma wrote: Lately I have removed red meat from my meals almost exclusively. However, I find myself becoming hypoglycemic and very "drained" if I go 2-3 days without meat. So, I slowed down and I now eat very modest with meat.


Then you need to examine your body's functioning and eat what is healthy for you. I am not sure if ruining your health just to follow some beliefs is the right thing to do. Vegetarianism is NOT the middle way.


i think there is nothing of an "ism" about being a vegetarian . Its a natural progression on the path of Dhamma, without being attached to the kind of eating . As to being healthy , modern science has very well documented the benefits of being a vegetarian , out weighs meat eating ( this thread cites many such examples , should you browse the pages ) . One should however have no qualms about those who eat meat , similarly , one should have no qualms about those who eat green grass :smile:

Take care.

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby nekete » Sat Dec 21, 2013 1:09 pm

Hello friends...

Maybe you already have talked about these books in this long thread, maybe not. I have found them recently and I'd like to recommend them for those who are interested in Buddhism and vegetarianism and still haven't heard about them.

Image

Image

Image
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby nekete » Sat Dec 21, 2013 1:19 pm

K.Dhamma wrote:(...) Lately I have removed red meat from my meals almost exclusively. However, I find myself becoming hypoglycemic and very "drained" if I go 2-3 days without meat. So, I slowed down and I now eat very modest with meat. (...)


My friend, what you need to eat to be healthy are carbohydrates, proteins, vitamins an minerals.

As you can see you don't need to eat 'meat' to be OK. What do you think is there in meat that you can't find in vegetables? (apart from b12 vitamin).

Check if you are having a balanced diet with all nutrients the human body (your specific body) needs. And of course meat is not a nutrient.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Alex123 » Sat Dec 21, 2013 5:08 pm

nekete wrote:As you can see you don't need to eat 'meat' to be OK. What do you think is there in meat that you can't find in vegetables? (apart from b12 vitamin).


Fats and cholesterol which are crucial for cells and brain function. Study the composition of fats in mother's milk... It will show you what the nature intended us to consume.

Also, remember, the closer the food is to make up of your body, the more natural it is.
I was not; I was; I am not; I do not care."
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby nekete » Sat Dec 21, 2013 5:12 pm

Alex123 wrote:
nekete wrote:As you can see you don't need to eat 'meat' to be OK. What do you think is there in meat that you can't find in vegetables? (apart from b12 vitamin).


Fats and cholesterol which are crucial for cells and brain function. Study the composition of fats in mother's milk... It will show you what the nature intended us to consume.

Also, remember, the closer the food is to make up of your body, the more natural it is.


You can obtain it from vegetables.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Alex123 » Sat Dec 21, 2013 5:20 pm

nekete wrote:You can obtain it from vegetables.


Yes it is possible, and so is it possible to obtain energy from water (steam-engine). But how efficient is it?

Except for coconut oil, which vegetarian product has saturated fat? What about B12?

What if someone needs to be on high protein, low-carb diet?
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby lyndon taylor » Sat Dec 21, 2013 5:25 pm

Alex123 wrote:
nekete wrote:As you can see you don't need to eat 'meat' to be OK. What do you think is there in meat that you can't find in vegetables? (apart from b12 vitamin).


Fats and cholesterol which are crucial for cells and brain function. Study the composition of fats in mother's milk... It will show you what the nature intended us to consume.

Also, remember, the closer the food is to make up of your body, the more natural it is.


What you've done is post a strong arguement for cannabilism, which goes to show just how nutty the meat eaters can get in their arguements!!!!
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community that has so generously given me so much, sincerely former monk John
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Alex123 » Sat Dec 21, 2013 5:27 pm

lyndon taylor wrote:What you've done is post a strong arguement for cannabilism, which goes to show just how nutty the meat eaters can get in their arguements!!!!


I didn't create this dukkha world. I don't approve it.
I was not; I was; I am not; I do not care."
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby binocular » Sat Dec 21, 2013 7:09 pm

Alex123 wrote:Also, remember, the closer the food is to make up of your body, the more natural it is.

That would make human blood a superfood. But from what I've read, blood, when eaten and digested, is actually not very nutritious - very poor in comparison to having it flow through your veins.
There are important changes in the digestive system that happen to the things we eat, which is why it is not possible to predict that something is nutritious simply because it resembles the make-up of our body.

Alex123 wrote:Yes it is possible, and so is it possible to obtain energy from water (steam-engine). But how efficient is it?

Depends on what one wishes to do with one's energy.

Except for coconut oil, which vegetarian product has saturated fat? What about B12?

From what I've read, B12 is normally stored in the body and doesn't get used up easily. See Wiki article on it.

What if someone needs to be on high protein, low-carb diet?

Obviously, in the field of nutrition, there are many differing opinions on what is good and what isn't. I think the real issue here is whom to trust, whom to rely on, and for what purpose.

There is the ideal of establishing bodily health per se - regardless of one's goals in life, regardless of what one wants to do in life.
I think this ideal is misleading.

One's ideas of "health" will necessarily have to do with what one sees as the meaning or purpose of life.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Mkoll » Sat Dec 21, 2013 8:05 pm

Alex123 wrote:Study the composition of fats in mother's milk... It will show you what the nature intended us to consume.

The composition of mother's milk shows you what nature intends for infant human beings to consume who will triple in weight within a year.

Metta.
When this is, that is.
From the arising of this comes the arising of that.
When this isn't, that isn't.
From the cessation of this comes the cessation of that.
-SN 12.61

Ex nihilo nihil fit.

Peace,
James
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Alex123 » Sat Dec 21, 2013 8:11 pm

Mkoll wrote:
Alex123 wrote:Study the composition of fats in mother's milk... It will show you what the nature intended us to consume.

The composition of mother's milk shows you what nature intends for infant human beings to consume who will triple in weight within a year.

Metta.


And what is fat composition of an adult brain? What do adult's cell need?
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby binocular » Sat Dec 21, 2013 8:22 pm

Alex123 wrote:And what is fat composition of an adult brain? What do adult's cell need?

Well, the way I see it, you are placing more faith in Western scientists than you do in Buddhist teachings, and you're reaping the results of this faith ...
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Alex123 » Sat Dec 21, 2013 8:30 pm

binocular wrote:From what I've read, B12 is normally stored in the body and doesn't get used up easily. See Wiki article on it.


B12 is water soluble., and ultimately derived from bacteria. One still has to get its stores from somewhere, hopefully not one's own tissue (which is meat).

Vitamin B12, vitamin B12 or vitamin B-12, also called cobalamin, is a water-soluble vitamin with a key role in the normal functioning of the brain and nervous system, and for the formation of blood. It is one of the eight B vitamins. It is normally involved in the metabolism of every cell of the human body, especially affecting DNA synthesis and regulation, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_B12
...
Vitamin B12 is found in most animal derived foods,...
Besides certain fermented foods,[71][72] there are currently only a few non-animal food sources of biologically active B12 suggested,[citation needed] and none of these have been subjected to human trials.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_B12#Sources





binocular wrote:
Alex123 wrote:Also, remember, the closer the food is to make up of your body, the more natural it is.

That would make human blood a superfood. But from what I've read, blood, when eaten and digested, is actually not very nutritious - very poor in comparison to having it flow through your veins.


By similar food such as, for example, pork meat, and to lesser extent from what other animals are made.


binocular wrote:There are important changes in the digestive system that happen to the things we eat, which is why it is not possible to predict that something is nutritious simply because it resembles the make-up of our body.


Correct. What is also true is that just because cows and some other herbivores can synthesise certain nutrients just from plants, it doesn't mean that humans can do the same. Our digestive system is not only the length of the stomach or kinds of teeth we have.

We can't synthesis essential aminoacids , or essential fatty acids, or some vitamins from grass like cows can.

binocular wrote:
Alex123 wrote:Yes it is possible, and so is it possible to obtain energy from water (steam-engine). But how efficient is it?

Depends on what one wishes to do with one's energy.


Like having well functioning brain that gets good fuel for it.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Alex123 » Sat Dec 21, 2013 8:31 pm

binocular wrote:
Alex123 wrote:And what is fat composition of an adult brain? What do adult's cell need?

Well, the way I see it, you are placing more faith in Western scientists than you do in Buddhist teachings, and you're reaping the results of this faith ...


I go with science when it comes to objective world, and Buddha when it comes to teaching about dukkha and cessation of it.
I was not; I was; I am not; I do not care."
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Mkoll » Sat Dec 21, 2013 8:42 pm

Alex123 wrote:
Mkoll wrote:
Alex123 wrote:Study the composition of fats in mother's milk... It will show you what the nature intended us to consume.

The composition of mother's milk shows you what nature intends for infant human beings to consume who will triple in weight within a year.

Metta.


And what is fat composition of an adult brain? What do adult's cell need?

Yes, the brain is mostly made up of fat. The body can make fat from carbohydrates and carbohydrates provide glucose, the brain's fuel.

If you're talking about omega 3 EFAs, you can get these directly from algae supplements. Or your body can synthesize the omega 3 EFAs from ALA which is found abundantly in walnuts, flaxseeds, and chia seeds.
When this is, that is.
From the arising of this comes the arising of that.
When this isn't, that isn't.
From the cessation of this comes the cessation of that.
-SN 12.61

Ex nihilo nihil fit.

Peace,
James
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby binocular » Sat Dec 21, 2013 8:48 pm

Alex123 wrote:I go with science when it comes to objective world, and Buddha when it comes to teaching about dukkha and cessation of it.

And what is the result of splitting your allegiance like that?
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Alex123 » Sat Dec 21, 2013 9:27 pm

Mkoll wrote:Yes, the brain is mostly made up of fat.


Yes, and please tell me from which kind. :)

Mkoll wrote:The body can make fat from carbohydrates

:jawdrop:
Human body? Where did you find that?!!

Mkoll wrote:and carbohydrates provide glucose, the brain's fuel.


Right. But there is difference between providing fuel and material to rebuild the brain. Remember, every tissue in the body is regularly rebuilt.
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