the great vegetarian debate

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Spiny Norman » Sun Sep 08, 2013 12:19 pm

daverupa wrote:-I'm not sure indifference and equanimity need to be distinguished....


And yet I have seen detailed discussions on this forum about the distinction between indifference and equanimity, so it is apparently of some importance.
Last edited by Spiny Norman on Sun Sep 08, 2013 12:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Jhana4 » Sun Sep 08, 2013 12:26 pm

cooran wrote:Jhana4,

If you don't see any point in a thread - don't enter the discussion,

With metta,
Chris


Translation: "If you have a critical opinion, the door is that way" ?
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Spiny Norman » Sun Sep 08, 2013 12:28 pm

daverupa wrote:And we should care what's in our bowls because we should be attending to our own training with great concern - but a lot of this thread is caring about what's in other peoples' bowls, grouping others and expressing ill-will towards those groups, and so forth...


OK, so it's about training. But we often debate different approaches to training on this forum.
Here's another one: viewtopic.php?f=42&t=13559
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Sep 08, 2013 7:24 pm

Hi Jhana4,
Jhana4 wrote:
cooran wrote:Jhana4,

If you don't see any point in a thread - don't enter the discussion,

With metta,
Chris


Translation: "If you have a critical opinion, the door is that way" ?

A number of topics cause endless debate on Buddhist forums, the top two being Rebirth and Vegetarianism. Some time ago the administrators and moderators of this site made the decision to merge and confine those discussions into single threads on in the Open Dhamma Forum.

Other such threads include:
The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate
"The Broken Buddha" by Ven.Dhammika and other scandals

The point about having such threads, and the Open Dhamma Forum itself, is that these contentious topics are confined to one place, as explained in the Terms of Service:
Posts whose intention is to debate contentious topics (such as rebirth) should be started in the Open Dhamma Forum. Posts that the moderators deem to be contentious or argumentative will be moved to the Open Dhamma Forum.

Critical opinion is fine, but our experience is that the Forum works better if certain contentious topics are kept in one place.

If you disagree with Forum Policy then the correct place to discuss it is in the Suggestion Box.

:anjali:
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Jhana4 » Sun Sep 08, 2013 7:59 pm

My short two line post wasn't about bringing the policy of this board up. It was questioning the regular participants of this thread as to why the would want to be regular contributors to this thread.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby chownah » Mon Sep 09, 2013 1:58 am

Jhana4 wrote:My short two line post wasn't about bringing the policy of this board up. It was questioning the regular participants of this thread as to why the would want to be regular contributors to this thread.

I don't know if I qualify as regular or not but I post here to learn about stuff......sometimes I get new ideas from reading the posts here........when it all starts to look like nothing but struggle I usually just stop posting as witnessing endless struggle is not interesting and thought provoking for me.......or the thoughts it provokes do not seem to be helpful.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby beingnobody » Mon Oct 14, 2013 4:58 pm

What's missing from this argument is the fact that the production of meat uses way more natural resources and arable land than that of non-meat agricultural goods. In addition, the issue of not being able to afford vegetarianism simply doesn't reflect the reality of most people in the world, who eat meat only rarely and on special occasions. This poster is likely from the United States, where massive grain subsidies drive the market price of meat to unbelievably low levels. Elsewhere on the planet (Latin America, Africa, Asia), meat is a secondary food, and its frequent consumption a major landmark of one's emergence into the middle class.

daverupa wrote::soap:

There may be bigger fish to fry: with roughly 70% of usable water locked up in agriculture, and human population growth being what it is, there are huge problems with food security on the horizon for all. There's only so much arable land, there's only so much water, and a world-spanning farm would be a biome holocaust of horrific consequence.

To extend a metaphor, I think this whole discussion is addressing very important trees, but there's a forest in danger. I want to take this opportunity to suggest that for anyone trying to eat food ethically, long-term food security issues deserve to be front and center whether or not animal protein is being consumed.

Consider the water. Consider what a world of just farmland looks like. Consider what nine billion people are going to eat in the year 2050. And so forth.

:focus:
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Ron-The-Elder » Mon Oct 14, 2013 11:02 pm

Found this today in another online forum. Thought you might be amazed and amused:

http://www.freesangha.com/forums/coffee ... re-animals)/
What Makes an Elder? :
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But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby cooran » Sat Oct 19, 2013 4:11 am

Hello all,

FACT-CHECK - An interesting article:

Do Vegetarians weigh less and have lower risk of disease than Meat-eaters?
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-10-17/p ... ss/5023984

With metta,
Chris
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---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Ben » Sat Oct 19, 2013 5:23 am

cooran wrote:Hello all,

FACT-CHECK - An interesting article:

Do Vegetarians weigh less and have lower risk of disease than Meat-eaters?
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-10-17/p ... ss/5023984

With metta,
Chris


The verdict: PETA's claim is correct, but there's more to the story. A poorly planned vegetarian/vegan diet can result in nutritional deficiencies and other health problems, and it is misleading to suggest an absence of meat alone will bring about weight loss.

That, is what you call a "straw man".
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby manas » Sun Oct 20, 2013 12:52 am

Hi everyone,
just a little input from an ex-vegetarian, I have recently begun working out a a gym, doing weight training to build up upper body muscular strength (if you saw how thin I am you would understand why I have to do this), and I must say that since I've been including modest amounts of fish and free-range chicken in my diet, that I seem to be improving not just in physical strength, but also in general wellbeing. I still think that if one can do it, one ought to be totally vegetarian, due to the suffering endured by animals, but maybe for some people, a bit of animal flesh in the diet is necessary to really thrive? In any case, once I've rebuilt my long-neglected physique, I intend to move back towards a vegetarian diet if I can, so long as I don't grow weak again in the process. (As an aside, I have experimented with eating some lamb also, but found it too 'heavy' for my system, and something seems 'wrong' about the taste, so I'm listening to my body, and not eating the flesh of mammals (pork is out of the question due to parasites, and beef is very unpleasant in my recollection, so I'm not even going there).
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Ben » Sun Oct 20, 2013 3:27 am

That is interesting, Manas. I have experienced the same response (increase in energy, well being) as a result of adopting a whole foods plant-based diet.
Kind regards,
Ben
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby manas » Sun Oct 20, 2013 6:43 pm

Ben wrote:That is interesting, Manas. I have experienced the same response (increase in energy, well being) as a result of adopting a whole foods plant-based diet.
Kind regards,
Ben
'
'
Thanks Ben,

you have sparked an interesting memory in me. I can remember when I first met up with my old Hindu friends, and was moving towards a vegetarian diet, about 20 years back. I did notice that my mind and body sort of 'cleared up' as a result of adopting that diet. I will consider what you say once more. Maybe I could build up my body with just (free-range) eggs and yoghurt as the only source of animal protein after all, along with beans, nuts etc, despite what some people are telling me. I remember how once, I got these lamb chops and found pus in them...and how that was the 'final straw' for me, and how I adopted the vegetarian diet from then on...oh how that memory still makes me shudder a little inwardly.

kind regards

manas.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby chownah » Mon Oct 21, 2013 4:26 am

manas,
Are you saying that an instance of aversion is what precipitated your changing to a vegetarian diet?
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby David N. Snyder » Wed Nov 27, 2013 4:32 pm

Al Gore is finally a vegan. I say finally because he has always claimed to be this big-time environmentalist and numerous studies have shown that the biggest cause of greenhouse gases is the animal agriculture.

Known across the globe for his political career, Mr. Gore rose to even bigger fame with the release of his 2006 Oscar-winning documentary "An Inconvenient Truth"--which raised awareness about climate change.
That very same year, the United Nations released their report Livestock's Long Shadow, a groundbreaking study that shows animal agriculture creates more greenhouse gases than all the transportation in the world combined.
http://www.mfablog.org/2013/11/al-gore-goes-vegan.html
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Ben » Wed Nov 27, 2013 5:27 pm

Gore will be a fantastic advocate for plant-based diets.
I wish him well with his culinary adventures.
"One cannot step twice into the same river, nor can one grasp any mortal substance in a stable condition, but it scatters and again gathers; it forms and dissolves, and approaches and departs."

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Anagarika » Wed Nov 27, 2013 5:36 pm

I'm with Ben on this one. I've gone to a sole plant based diet, and have cut weight, have more energy, no lethargy from food consumption, and I'm guessing my blood pressure is lower. I just feel better, and do not miss animal meat at all; in fact, when I see a photo of a steak, I feel a bit sick and think of the poor cow or steer that was tortured and then killed before being cut up to make the steak. In the US, we treat our food animals so cruelly that I could no longer be part of this chain of cruel commerce.

I'm also observing 8 precepts each day, and while it can be challenging, the benefits of this lifestyle vs what I was doing five years ago are significant. I may add that I am over age 50, and feel that 8 precepts and a vegetarian diet are perhaps significantly easier in middle age than it would have been at age 25.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby greenjuice » Wed Nov 27, 2013 7:55 pm

Manas, you can get enough protein without meat. I'm not too bukled up, but I do work out, and I'm fairly bigger and stronger then the average person. My diet is very simple, my main foods are whole-grain wheat flatbread and legumes- lentils and beans, from animal products I eat an egg, two or three a month, and drink a glass of milk or two a week. Besides that I eat only cereals (millet, rice, etc.), veggies and fruit, and I get enough protein for working out.

Also, my advice is to shun the gym. Exercise at home- squats, back extensions, twisting sit-ups, push-ups, pull-ups and the deadlift can all be done at home, they they exercise all the muscles, and are enough for everyone that is not a bodybuilder. If someone doesn't want to buy a home pull-up bar, he can use pretty much any park, also if one doesn't want to buy weights he can deadlift large stones he finds while out for a walk/run, but if someone can't or won't do those alternatives either- the pull-up and deadlift can be replaced with good-mornings, inverted row and elevated-feet inverted row, which can be done at homea. Also shun the gym workout program. Exercise every other or third day, and also make long pauses, e.g. work out for a couple of months, and then pause a month. Exercise hard (slow moves, no muscle rest in a series), use proper form (this is also a mindfulness exercise :D ), sleep enough and eat enough, and you can not only stop being thin, but also get reasonably big and strong.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby K.Dhamma » Wed Dec 18, 2013 4:39 pm

I would not consider myself vegetarian. I do the ascetic practice of only eating once a day. I want to become vegetarian, and I actually do pretty good in reducing the amount of meat in my meals. Lately I have removed red meat from my meals almost exclusively. However, I find myself becoming hypoglycemic and very "drained" if I go 2-3 days without meat. So, I slowed down and I now eat very modest with meat. I have yet to give up milk and other product, but I always look back to "Rome wasn't built in a day." So, I basically take it on a day to day/meal to meal basis. One step at a time. I think that the suffering from mega farms and the such that is put onto other beings just for the consumption of meat is a treatorous road to travel for a farmer doing it. I do have a couple questions though.

What about eggs? Are unfertilized free range eggs ok to consume for protein?
Also, does anyone know a good website to go to for maybe nutritional information for someone wanting to become a strict vegetarian? I would love to do it, but I haven't found a good website with information pertaining to nutritional information when switching from meat-to-veg diets. Any help is appreciated.

Just a side note. I found that the one thing that changed my mind in the beginning about meat eating is when we are re-incarnated, just remember....you might have been that cow at some time...so does that make you a cannibal? :P Food for Though (pun intended ;) )
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby David N. Snyder » Wed Dec 18, 2013 5:08 pm

K.Dhamma wrote:What about eggs? Are unfertilized free range eggs ok to consume for protein?
Also, does anyone know a good website to go to for maybe nutritional information for someone wanting to become a strict vegetarian? I would love to do it, but I haven't found a good website with information pertaining to nutritional information when switching from meat-to-veg diets. Any help is appreciated.


Eggs are okay, no being is killed to produce eggs if you want to be lacto-ovo vegetarian. However, there is some "collateral damage" according to some vegans. Typically at an egg farm, the male chicks that are born are ground up and made into pet food or hotdogs (since they don't produce eggs).

The vegan resource group is a good site for more information:
http://www.vrg.org/
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