the great vegetarian debate

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Spiny Norman » Fri Sep 06, 2013 12:58 pm

daverupa wrote:
Spiny Norman wrote:I think this is a substantive point, Dave. Some people just like eating meat.

Do not underestimate equanimity in such a case.


Do you mean somebody who doesn't mind what they eat, as opposed to somebody who likes eating meat and doesn't want to give it up?
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby daverupa » Fri Sep 06, 2013 3:07 pm

Spiny Norman wrote:
daverupa wrote:
Spiny Norman wrote:I think this is a substantive point, Dave. Some people just like eating meat.

Do not underestimate equanimity in such a case.


Do you mean somebody who doesn't mind what they eat, as opposed to somebody who likes eating meat and doesn't want to give it up?


Neither of those is what you said first, so I'm having a hard time answering you. I was responding to "people who just like eating meat" and the apparent distress which can arise on perceiving someone belonging to this broad category. Presumably the most distress will be experienced by vegetarians et al, though this category is broad enough to cover even those who will eat well-done steaks but who recoil in disgust at seeing a rare steak.

But now it's a choice between someone who doesn't care, and someone who not only likes meat but doesn't want to give it up. Neither one was denoted at first, so how can either one be the specific group I meant?
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    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Alex123 » Fri Sep 06, 2013 3:44 pm

seeker242 wrote:I don't think it's an arguable point as there is no scientific evidence to back that statement up. Protein is simply amino acids combinations.


There are these issues:
Protein should have balanced, complete amino-acid profile, and easily digested.

Even though some nuts and seeds do contain all essential amino-acids, I wonder how easy it is for the body to absorb them.

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Jhana4 » Fri Sep 06, 2013 4:04 pm

Alex123 wrote:
seeker242 wrote:I don't think it's an arguable point as there is no scientific evidence to back that statement up. Protein is simply amino acids combinations.


There are these issues:
Protein should have balanced, complete amino-acid profile, and easily digested.


That information is out of date. Registered dieticians have been telling people for at least ten years now unless they eat the worst food possible ( coke and chips ), if they eat enough to maintain their weight they will take in enough protein. All they have to do is eat good food and eat a variety high protein plant based foods during the course of their day. It was discovered that human bodies store some of the 9 essential amino acids, so as long as a person is eating a varied diet, a human body can manufacture the other amino acids it needs.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Alex123 » Fri Sep 06, 2013 4:35 pm

Jhana4 wrote:That information is out of date.


Whose information?


Registered dieticians have been telling people for at least ten years now unless they eat the worst food possible ( coke and chips ), if they eat enough to maintain their weight they will take in enough protein.


No. Protein, unfortunately, is hard to get. Unlike carbs. The weight maintenance might be fat maintenance in the above case.
Unless one eats tens :shock: of pounds of fruits & vegetables one isn't going to get enough protein.

Jhana4 wrote: All they have to do is eat good food and eat a variety high protein plant based foods during the course of their day.


If one eats few kinds of nuts and seeds. Sure. But there are more calories in them than in equivalent amount of meat by weight.

I calculated that one might need >20 pounds of carrots and such low protein sources to get adequate (and incomplete) protein.


Jhana4 wrote: It was discovered that human bodies store some of the 9 essential amino acids,


How much can one store? I am also curious about your claim about storing protein in the body. Where did you get the info?

Everywhere I read, it says that body cannot store protein. Unless of course you mean catabolizing one's one muscles to get them.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Jhana4 » Fri Sep 06, 2013 4:38 pm

Alex123 wrote:
Jhana4 wrote:That information is out of date.


Whose information?



The American Dietetic Association.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protein_combining
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Alex123 » Fri Sep 06, 2013 4:46 pm

Jhana4 wrote:
Alex123 wrote:
Jhana4 wrote:That information is out of date.


Whose information?



The American Dietetic Association.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protein_combining



How is that relevant to our discussion?

Yes, it seems possible (don't know if it is as optimum) to combine certain sources of protein in the same day, not same meal, and still be ok.

Many vegetarian sources contain very little amount of protein, so one would have to eat pounds and pounds of them just to get sufficient amount of protein.

For example if one eats 100g of meat, one would need to eat >4.4 POUNDS of carrots to get the same amount of protein, and incomplete protein at that!

Obviously one can see problems in eating so much. 100g (3.5 ounces) of meat is much easier to digest than 4.4 pounds of carrots/etc, and less taxing on the body.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Jhana4 » Fri Sep 06, 2013 4:54 pm

Alex123 wrote:Whose information?

jhana4 wrote:The American Dietetic Association.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protein_combining


how is that relevant to our discussion?


It is relevant because after I replied to your post explaining that your nutrition information was outdated, you asked me whose information I was giving to you. The URL I provided is your answer, it takes you to a link on Wikipedia explaining what I explained, but with refernces to the American Dietetic Association.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Alex123 » Fri Sep 06, 2013 5:03 pm

Jhana4 wrote:It is relevant because after I replied to your post explaining that your nutrition information was outdated, you asked me whose information I was giving to you. The URL I provided is your answer, it takes you to a link on Wikipedia explaining what I explained, but with refernces to the American Dietetic Association.


I don't remember saying here that:
-one has to get all essential amino-acids in ONE meal, rather than during the day
- one can't get full protein from vegetarian sources (one can).
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Jhana4 » Fri Sep 06, 2013 5:09 pm

You wrote that proteins needed to be balanced. That is out of date with the modern view that amino acids don't have to be intentionally complimented if a person is living off anything other than the worst of food. I have no desire to quibble, so I will wish you a good weekend.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Alex123 » Fri Sep 06, 2013 5:13 pm

Jhana4 wrote:You wrote that proteins needed to be balanced.


But not necessarily within one meal. Protein needs to be complete (balanced amino acids).

If we check Bioavailability index and PDCAAS values, animal derived protein is typically better than vegetarian sources of protein.
The only contender is soy. But there is big controversy with it because soy is mostly GM, and might affect hormones in the wrong way.

Animal protein is also more similar (amino-acid ratios) to human flesh than seeds, nuts, fruits and vegetables. So in that sense it can also be more fitting for human body. Of course the body can go an extra step and convert vegetarian sources of protein into human flesh, and jet engine might still be able to use inferior (for it) fuel. But the health might not be optimum.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby reflection » Fri Sep 06, 2013 5:32 pm

Alex123 wrote:How is that relevant to our discussion?

Yes, it seems possible (don't know if it is as optimum) to combine certain sources of protein in the same day, not same meal, and still be ok.

Many vegetarian sources contain very little amount of protein, so one would have to eat pounds and pounds of them just to get sufficient amount of protein.

For example if one eats 100g of meat, one would need to eat >4.4 POUNDS of carrots to get the same amount of protein, and incomplete protein at that!

Obviously one can see problems in eating so much. 100g (3.5 ounces) of meat is much easier to digest than 4.4 pounds of carrots/etc, and less taxing on the body.


And if one eats 100g of carrots, one would need to eat 15 kilos of meat to get the same amount of vitamine A. Now beat that.

As you see, such comparisons don't make sense. Vegetarians don't just eat carrots. Cheese, beans, tofu, nuts things like that have high protein levels.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Alex123 » Fri Sep 06, 2013 5:39 pm

reflection wrote:And if one eats 100g of carrots, one would need to eat 15 kilos of meat to get the same amount of vitamine A. Now beat that.


A little pill (or few of them) containing Vitamin A could solve the deficiency. Unfortunately there is no little pill for entire daily protein need.

Furthermore, I do recommend eating organic vegetables, greens as addition to meat, etc. The issue we are talking here is about protein amount and digestibility.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby reflection » Fri Sep 06, 2013 5:42 pm

I understand, but my point is then you should make fair comparisons and not carrots versus meat which is nonsense. A balanced vegetarian diet should pose no problems with protein for the average person. Of course if you only eat carrots you will get problems but then who does that?
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Alex123 » Fri Sep 06, 2013 5:47 pm

reflection wrote:I understand, but my point is then you should make fair comparisons and not carrots versus meat which is nonsense.


Why not eat them both?

A balanced vegetarian diet should pose no problems with protein for the average person.


Correct. But it does require more know-how to get all the nutrients (omega-3s, complete AA, B12, saturated fat, etc) that are more rare in vegetarian diets than in omnivore diets. There is also an issue that BV and PDCAAS values from plant based diets is generally lower than from animal derived sources. Some vegetarians correctly point out the antibiotics and such substances that are used in normal commercial meat, but what about pesticide use and GM in vegetarian food? Mass production of meat has its drawbacks, but so are plants.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby reflection » Fri Sep 06, 2013 6:01 pm

Pesticides and GM also end up in meat because the animals also end up eating soy and corn and stuff like that. So those hormone changes you are talking about may well happen in the meat and so I don't think that is a good argument to eat meat instead of other things.

Luckily I live in Europe where GM regulation is very strict. Also vegetables without nasty pesticides used is easy to find. Of course, meat without all those nasty things can be found as well so I'm not advocating vegetarian is the only way to be free off it, but I think your argument is sort of lacking that if you are a vegetarian you could not avoid nasty stuff? I don't think that's true. In fact I think you have more control over what you eat because the base products often are so simple and unprocessed.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby seeker242 » Fri Sep 06, 2013 6:21 pm

Alex123 wrote:
seeker242 wrote:I don't think it's an arguable point as there is no scientific evidence to back that statement up. Protein is simply amino acids combinations.


There are these issues:
Protein should have balanced, complete amino-acid profile, and easily digested.

Even though some nuts and seeds do contain all essential amino-acids, I wonder how easy it is for the body to absorb them.

Image


I would agree that this information is not correct or presents an inaccurate picture. The PDCAAS is considered "the preferred 'best'" method to determine protein quality by the US Food and Drug Administration (FDA) and the Food and Agricultural Organization of the United Nations/World Health Organization. Other methods are considered by these organizations to be inferior evaluation methods. Unfortunately your chart does not show what method was used to come to those numbers or it's source. I would be intetested in seeing that if someone knows. Here are the PDCAAS numbers. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protein_Di ... Acid_Score

1.00 casein (milk protein)
1.00 egg white
1.00 soy protein
1.00 whey (milk protein)
0.99 mycoprotein (Quorn, etc.)
0.92 beef
0.91 soybeans
0.78 chickpeas
0.76 fruits
0.75 black beans
0.73 vegetables
0.70 Other legumes
0.59 cereals and derivatives
0.52 peanuts
0.42 whole wheat

As you can see from the above chart, soy and mycoprotein are both superior quality to beef. I'm curious as to where amaranth, buckwheat, quinoa, and spirulina would fall on the above chart. I would not be surprised if any of them scored above beef also.

Experts these days agree with the below.

"With three important exceptions, there is little danger of protein deficiency in a plant food diet. The exceptions are diets very heavily dependent on [1] fruit or on [2] some tubers, such as sweet potatoes or cassava, or on [3] junk food (refined flours, sugars, and fat). Fortunately, relatively few people in the world try to survive on diets in which these foods are virtually the sole source of calories. In all other diets, if people are getting enough calories, they are virtually certain of getting enough protein."

As far as "complete amino acid profile" or "complete protein", the "incomplete" label is misleading for many, many foods. Regular potatoes are considered "incomplete protein". However, potatoes contain ALL essential amino acids, just in different quantities. If you ate 2,500 calories of nothing but potatoes every day, you will still be exceeding the recommendation for ALL essential amino acids.

Even if you ate nothing but potatoes, every day, you would be lacking nothing with regards to protein quality or quantity. Potatoes are just one example.

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby daverupa » Fri Sep 06, 2013 6:32 pm

Related:

The History and Social Influence of the Potato, by Redcliffe N. Salaman.

Great read.

:focus:
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby clw_uk » Fri Sep 06, 2013 7:14 pm

daverupa wrote:Related:

The History and Social Influence of the Potato, by Redcliffe N. Salaman.

Great read.

:focus:





:jumping: :rofl:


Sorry that title made me laugh lol
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Alex123 » Fri Sep 06, 2013 7:19 pm

BV is one of tools to measure protein quality. But even with PDCAAS, please not that milk & egg protein are higher than vegetarian sources provided.
Also, soy is so controversial that I don't consider it. Some other sources such as quinoa doesn't have that much protein as animal sources.



seeker242 wrote:1.00 casein (milk protein)
1.00 egg white
1.00 soy protein
1.00 whey (milk protein)
0.99 mycoprotein (Quorn, etc.)
0.92 beef
0.91 soybeans
0.78 chickpeas
0.76 fruits
0.75 black beans
0.73 vegetables
0.70 Other legumes
0.59 cereals and derivatives
0.52 peanuts
0.42 whole wheat

As you can see from the above chart, soy and mycoprotein are both superior quality to beef. I'm curious as to where amaranth, buckwheat, quinoa, and spirulina would fall on the above chart. I would not be surprised if any of them scored above beef also.


You are correct about soy, except that it might have bad health side effects, especially for men. I am all for vegetarianism in principle. But unfortunately real life is harsh...


As for quinoa, apparently it has only 4 grams of protein per 100g of it. Meat has 20+.
http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/cer ... ta/10352/2

So if one needs 100-200g of protein per day... One would need 2.5-5 KG (5.5 - 12.1 pounds) of it per day...
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