the great vegetarian debate

An open and inclusive investigation into Buddhism and spiritual cultivation

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Ben » Sun Sep 01, 2013 2:27 am

dagon wrote:Some of the aggressive and attached people i know are veterinarians - some of the kindest are veterinarians - i guess that it is what is going on in the mind and how the self is identified that makes the difference, not the menu choices that are made.

metta
paul


Indeed. I have seen the same thing. In my experience it is the person and not the preferred eating arrangements that are usually to blame.
kind regards,

Ben
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.

Taṃ nadīhi vijānātha:
sobbhesu padaresu ca,
saṇantā yanti kusobbhā,
tuṇhīyanti mahodadhī.

Sutta Nipata 3.725


Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR
Buddhist Life Stories of Australia

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com
User avatar
Ben
Site Admin
 
Posts: 16259
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:49 am
Location: Land of the sleeping gods

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby cooran » Sun Sep 01, 2013 2:36 am

Well, I don't know any veterinarians - unless you count the last one I took my dog to in order to get his injections. Why single one profession out?

With metta,
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
User avatar
cooran
 
Posts: 7718
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:32 pm
Location: Queensland, Australia

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby dagon » Sun Sep 01, 2013 3:22 am

cooran wrote:Well, I don't know any veterinarians - unless you count the last one I took my dog to in order to get his injections. Why single one profession out?

With metta,
Chris


lol, i was not being mindful, caught out again

thanks mate
regards
dagon
 
Posts: 297
Joined: Sun Jun 30, 2013 12:45 am

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby BubbaBuddhist » Sun Sep 01, 2013 1:38 pm

Image
Author of Redneck Buddhism: or Will You Reincarnate as Your Own Cousin?
User avatar
BubbaBuddhist
 
Posts: 640
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:55 am
Location: Knoxville, Tennessee

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Spiny Norman » Mon Sep 02, 2013 9:20 am

dagon wrote:Some of the aggressive and attached people i know are vegetarians...


I haven't met any vegetarians like that. I've found that people who care about the welfare of animals also tend to care about the welfare of people.

PS Please don't mention Hitler... :tongue:
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!
User avatar
Spiny Norman
 
Posts: 2847
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Spam, wonderful spam

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Jhana4 » Tue Sep 03, 2013 1:24 pm

Spiny Norman wrote:It has been proven that Hitler was not a vegetarian ( he ate pork ). His early biographers were British, who used the word "meat" as being synonymous with "beef" and for his occult beliefs Hitler avoided beef.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
Jhana4
 
Posts: 1309
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2011 5:20 pm
Location: U.S.A., Northeast

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Jhana4 » Tue Sep 03, 2013 1:27 pm

dagon wrote:Some of the aggressive and attached people i know are vegetarians...


Not nearly as attached as aggressive and attached as many meat eaters I have met in being frightened to look at how things are done and being open to thinking about changing. I've sat down to lunch with people without saying a word to have them look at my food, ask me if I am a vegetarian, then go into some impassioned diatribe against it. Attached? Aggressive?
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
Jhana4
 
Posts: 1309
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2011 5:20 pm
Location: U.S.A., Northeast

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Jhana4 » Tue Sep 03, 2013 1:29 pm

Spiny Norman wrote:I haven't met any vegetarians like that. I've found that people who care about the welfare of animals also tend to care about the welfare of people.


When I used to leaflet I would often get people asking me why I didn't do something for people instead of animals. I would tell them about my donations to the local food bank and then I would ask them what they were doing for the world. I would rarely get an answer.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
Jhana4
 
Posts: 1309
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2011 5:20 pm
Location: U.S.A., Northeast

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Jhana4 » Tue Sep 03, 2013 1:31 pm

Anyone read this book?




Image
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
Jhana4
 
Posts: 1309
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2011 5:20 pm
Location: U.S.A., Northeast

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Jhana4 » Tue Sep 03, 2013 1:58 pm

Alex123 wrote:Carnivores eat other animals. Even if humans don't eat chicken, or rabbit, the fox or some other carnivore will. The big predator fish can eat smaller fish... And unlike humans, they do not have humane way of killing their prey.


Humans don't kill humanely. Google on "factory farms" and then google on kosher or halal slaughtering methods. Yes, animals kill other animals. They don't have a choice. Human beings have a choice. Oddly enough that capacity is why Buddhism thinks being born human is so special, it gives us the ability to follow the dhamma.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
Jhana4
 
Posts: 1309
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2011 5:20 pm
Location: U.S.A., Northeast

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Jhana4 » Tue Sep 03, 2013 2:09 pm

dagon wrote:Some of the aggressive and attached people i know are vegetarians - some of the kindest are vegetarians - i guess that it is what is going on in the mind and how the self is identified that makes the difference, not the menu choices that are made.

metta
paul


I don't mean any disrespect Paul. I think the passage you quoted is an argument ad hominem with the underlying motive to discredit vegetarians to make it easier to dismiss them rather than having to think about what they have to say. Isn't that attachment to views, something which Buddhism warns people about?

As to some other implied points, most vegetarians are vegetarians because they are very aware that animals have the capacity to suffer, they want to live like we do and they want to avoid pain like we do. People have a hard time being agreeable when something horrible is in the process of happening. A creature being that suffers like we do, being put into pain and killed.

If any person had that view, they would feel very strongly and would say something about at least avoiding using animal products.

That is the point were I interjected my comment, a subtle making fun of monks seeking out vegetarian food. Someone trying to sustain themselves without hurting another creature like themselves. It is my belief that is the result of many people not being able to handle the fact they could unknowingly be doing something horrible so they discredit the people who provoke those thoughts.

The dhamma is about seeing things as they are, especially unpleasant things we intentionally avoid looking at like death, aging, dukkha. The value in looking at things it would be easier to avoid seeing is to make things better.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
Jhana4
 
Posts: 1309
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2011 5:20 pm
Location: U.S.A., Northeast

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby lyndon taylor » Tue Sep 03, 2013 2:31 pm

I went to the cow pasture; no cows eating animals!!! Then I went to the pig farm; no pigs eating animals!!!! Then the sheep pasture; no sheep eating animals! And finally the chicken coop; no chickens eating animals! maybe we should learn something from the animals........
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community that has so generously given me so much, sincerely former monk John
User avatar
lyndon taylor
 
Posts: 878
Joined: Mon May 02, 2011 11:41 pm
Location: Redlands, Southern California, USA

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby BubbaBuddhist » Tue Sep 03, 2013 2:56 pm

To all,
I was the moderator of the vegetarian forum of e-sangha for almost four years, and it was easily the bitterestly-contested area on that entire website. We moderators had to take more disciplinary actions, suspend more members ,and delete more posts than on any other section, and from both omnis and veggies. The omnis had their moments, yes, but the veggies quite often called omnis 'baby-killers" and "monsters," among other things. Hell, vegans sent me vitriolic hate-mail because I was 'only' a vegetarian and that wasn't good enough, therefore I had no right to be the moderator. It was unbelievable. Well, almost. I've come to recognize people say things on the internet they would never dare say face-to-face. Accountability has gone out the window.

My take on the whole thing is we have to be as mindful of what comes out of our mouths as what we put in it.

Munching on some celery and hummus,

BB
Author of Redneck Buddhism: or Will You Reincarnate as Your Own Cousin?
User avatar
BubbaBuddhist
 
Posts: 640
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:55 am
Location: Knoxville, Tennessee

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby dagon » Tue Sep 03, 2013 3:06 pm

Jhana4 wrote:
dagon wrote:Some of the aggressive and attached people i know are vegetarians - some of the kindest are vegetarians - i guess that it is what is going on in the mind and how the self is identified that makes the difference, not the menu choices that are made.

metta
paul


I don't mean any disrespect Paul. I think the passage you quoted is an argument ad hominem with the underlying motive to discredit vegetarians to make it easier to dismiss them rather than having to think about what they have to say. Isn't that attachment to views, something which Buddhism warns people about?

As to some other implied points, most vegetarians are vegetarians because they are very aware that animals have the capacity to suffer, they want to live like we do and they want to avoid pain like we do. People have a hard time being agreeable when something horrible is in the process of happening. A creature being that suffers like we do, being put into pain and killed.

If any person had that view, they would feel very strongly and would say something about at least avoiding using animal products.

That is the point were I interjected my comment, a subtle making fun of monks seeking out vegetarian food. Someone trying to sustain themselves without hurting another creature like themselves. It is my belief that is the result of many people not being able to handle the fact they could unknowingly be doing something horrible so they discredit the people who provoke those thoughts.

The dhamma is about seeing things as they are, especially unpleasant things we intentionally avoid looking at like death, aging, dukkha. The value in looking at things it would be easier to avoid seeing is to make things better.


Hi Jhana

I read the whole of that book and my assessment of what was being said was VERY different to yours. I should read it again because i can cleanly see that you have more wisdom than me - even about my dietary preferences.

You are so right about me wishing to avoid seeing things as they are - especially sickness, suffering and old age.

I spent to day looking after old, sick dying people in a nursing home - how did you spend you day?

metta
paul
dagon
 
Posts: 297
Joined: Sun Jun 30, 2013 12:45 am

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Jhana4 » Tue Sep 03, 2013 3:32 pm

My view of things is that I wrote a reply to a post trying to discredit what I consider to be a noble endeavor by stereotyping and dismissing the people who attempt it. My reply consisted of what I honestly think. I got back sarcasm. I know little about you beyond your screen name and a few facts. I will leave things at wishing you to have a happy Tuesday.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
Jhana4
 
Posts: 1309
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2011 5:20 pm
Location: U.S.A., Northeast

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Alex123 » Tue Sep 03, 2013 3:52 pm

lyndon taylor wrote:I went to the cow pasture; no cows eating animals!!! Then I went to the pig farm; no pigs eating animals!!!! Then the sheep pasture; no sheep eating animals! And finally the chicken coop; no chickens eating animals! maybe we should learn something from the animals........



What about wolves, foxes and other animals like that? They cut the prey to pieces making "look at factory farms!" seem ridiculous. As much as I am against mistreatment of animals and seen few clips of "factory farms", the real life is as bad if not worse than that.
"dust to dust...."
User avatar
Alex123
 
Posts: 2915
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:32 pm

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby David N. Snyder » Tue Sep 03, 2013 4:08 pm

It doesn't matter what animals do. They are in the 'woeful states' and not something we need to emulate. The vegetarian for religious reasons (whatever religion that might be; HIndu, Jain, some Buddhists) would argue that humans have attained to a higher level than animals and are held to a higher standard.
User avatar
David N. Snyder
Site Admin
 
Posts: 8165
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby lyndon taylor » Tue Sep 03, 2013 4:21 pm

Alex123 wrote:
lyndon taylor wrote:I went to the cow pasture; no cows eating animals!!! Then I went to the pig farm; no pigs eating animals!!!! Then the sheep pasture; no sheep eating animals! And finally the chicken coop; no chickens eating animals! maybe we should learn something from the animals........



What about wolves, foxes and other animals like that? They cut the prey to pieces making "look at factory farms!" seem ridiculous. As much as I am against mistreatment of animals and seen few clips of "factory farms", the real life is as bad if not worse than that.



you're not eating wolves and foxes, are you????
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community that has so generously given me so much, sincerely former monk John
User avatar
lyndon taylor
 
Posts: 878
Joined: Mon May 02, 2011 11:41 pm
Location: Redlands, Southern California, USA

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby lyndon taylor » Tue Sep 03, 2013 4:24 pm

David N. Snyder wrote:It doesn't matter what animals do. They are in the 'woeful states' and not something we need to emulate. The vegetarian for religious reasons (whatever religion that might be; HIndu, Jain, some Buddhists) would argue that humans have attained to a higher level than animals and are held to a higher standard.



It would seem as regards what we will eat, most of us haven't acheived a higher state than a cow!!!!!!!
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community that has so generously given me so much, sincerely former monk John
User avatar
lyndon taylor
 
Posts: 878
Joined: Mon May 02, 2011 11:41 pm
Location: Redlands, Southern California, USA

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby clw_uk » Tue Sep 03, 2013 4:32 pm

lyndon taylor wrote:I went to the cow pasture; no cows eating animals!!! Then I went to the pig farm; no pigs eating animals!!!! Then the sheep pasture; no sheep eating animals! And finally the chicken coop; no chickens eating animals! maybe we should learn something from the animals........



As much as we try to get away from it, humans are built to hunt and kill as well as eat vegetables. That is why we have forward facing eyes and canine teeth as well as molars.

Now vegetarianism is ideal, however it's not practical for everyone. Also let's not forget they vegetarianism is not a pre-requisit for enlightenment.

Also the Buddha ate meat as we all know. Now in karmic terms, killing is unwholesome however I don't see a problem with buying meat from the supermarkets. It's going to be there anyway and it will either be bought by someone else or just thrown away.


Life feeds off life. That's one of the factors that drives evolution. Sadly that's the way it is.
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
User avatar
clw_uk
 
Posts: 3479
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales, United Kingdom

PreviousNext

Return to Open Dhamma

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Yahoo [Bot] and 4 guests