the great vegetarian debate

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Lucas Oliveira
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Re: Does been a vegetarian mean gods are with you?

Post by Lucas Oliveira »

Because the Buddha does not eat only light?

MN 36 - Maha-Saccaka Sutta: The Longer Discourse to Saccaka

"Devas, on seeing me, said, 'Gotama the contemplative is dead.' Other devas said, 'He isn't dead, he's dying.' Others said, 'He's neither dead nor dying, he's an arahant, for this is the way arahants live.'

"I thought: 'Suppose I were to practice going altogether without food.' Then devas came to me and said, 'Dear sir, please don't practice going altogether without food. If you go altogether without food, we'll infuse divine nourishment in through your pores, and you will survive on that.' I thought, 'If I were to claim to be completely fasting while these devas are infusing divine nourishment in through my pores, I would be lying.' So I dismissed them, saying, 'Enough.'

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


:anjali:


Living on light: woman attempts to prove humans can live without food

A 65-year-old Seattle woman is attempting to go 100 days on just water, shunning all medical advice in the process

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/ ... thout-food (just a quick search with the Great Master Google! )


:namaste:
I participate in this forum using Google Translator. http://translate.google.com.br

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Ben
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Re: Does been a vegetarian mean gods are with you?

Post by Ben »

jackson wrote:
robertk wrote:
DC2R wrote:
Perhaps you can look at it in a more generalized way. Feelings like "the gods are with you" probably stem from the good kamma you develop by not eating animals that have been killed. Soon.
The idea that there is good kamma from being vegetarian is wrong view - and wrong view is akusala.
Hi Robert,
Is there scriptural basis for this? Personally speaking I've seen really wholesome results from being vegetarian, and then vegan. My health is better, and my family seems to respect me more because they know how much I care about other beings, not to mention there is a weight off my conscience. Anyway, this is all anecdotal of course, so I'm open to hearing why it would be that there is no good kamma from being vegetarian.
Best wishes,
:smile:
Yes, very good scriptural support and quite a bit of it, as well. I suggest you research suttas on the Buddha's refutation of the Nigantha's view on kamma and also research the origin of the schism led by Devadutta.
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
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ihrjordan
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Re: Does been a vegetarian mean gods are with you?

Post by ihrjordan »

Lucas Oliveira wrote:Because the Buddha does not eat only light?

MN 36 - Maha-Saccaka Sutta: The Longer Discourse to Saccaka

"Devas, on seeing me, said, 'Gotama the contemplative is dead.' Other devas said, 'He isn't dead, he's dying.' Others said, 'He's neither dead nor dying, he's an arahant, for this is the way arahants live.'

"I thought: 'Suppose I were to practice going altogether without food.' Then devas came to me and said, 'Dear sir, please don't practice going altogether without food. If you go altogether without food, we'll infuse divine nourishment in through your pores, and you will survive on that.' I thought, 'If I were to claim to be completely fasting while these devas are infusing divine nourishment in through my pores, I would be lying.' So I dismissed them, saying, 'Enough.'

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


:anjali:


Living on light: woman attempts to prove humans can live without food

A 65-year-old Seattle woman is attempting to go 100 days on just water, shunning all medical advice in the process

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/ ... thout-food (just a quick search with the Great Master Google! )


:namaste:
One can subsist in the 4th Jhana for a really long time without food because the body has essentially shut down temporarily. It is also rumored that one cannot succumb to injury while the breath is absent as the breath is the primary indicator of life.
SarathW
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Re: Does been a vegetarian mean gods are with you?

Post by SarathW »

it would be that there is no good kamma from being vegetarian.
Best wishes,
Then another question arises "There is bad Kamma from being a non-vegetarian?" etc.

We are living in a society it is impossible for us to avoid animal based products.
Cloths, fertilizer, medical aids, general house hold items contains animal based products.
Is blood infusion and using a donated organ a bad kamma?

This may be the reason why Buddha limited his opinion only to avoid killing.
He also advise monk to practice moderation in food and using products. (medicine, cloths etc)

However I personally think vegetarianism is a good thing even though I am not a vegetarian.
Buddha left that to the individual.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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mario92
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Re: Does been a vegetarian mean gods are with you?

Post by mario92 »

I think is a social condition, i tried to be vegetarian 7 years ago, but my father became very angry and my familiy worried, there were time when on eating very healthy i would subsist without meat, but i was forced to eat because i live in a society.

But as being vegetarian, i had read in the biography of ajahn thate that, he was subsisting without meat with only vegetarian food, and he taught that he had to came back after he came out from retreat and other people gave him meat. He also said that devas get repelled from the stinky smell the humans have from eating meat, i think thats the reason that oneself get attraction from devas as being vegetarian, plus good conduct.

:hello:
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seeker242
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Re: Does been a vegetarian mean gods are with you?

Post by seeker242 »

robertk wrote:
DC2R wrote:
Perhaps you can look at it in a more generalized way. Feelings like "the gods are with you" probably stem from the good kamma you develop by not eating animals that have been killed. Soon.
The idea that there is good kamma from being vegetarian is wrong view - and wrong view is akusala.
Is it wrong view to believe that acts of kindness make good kamma?
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pilgrim
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Re: Does been a vegetarian mean gods are with you?

Post by pilgrim »

"Sariputta, there are certain recluses and brahmans whose doctrine and view is this: 'Purification comes about through food.' They say: 'Let us live on beans'... 'Let us live on sesamum'... 'Let us live on rice,' and they eat rice, they eat rice powder, [81] they drink rice water, and they make various kinds of rice concoctions. Now I recall having eaten a single rice grain a day. Sariputta, you may think that the rice grain was bigger at that time, yet you should not regard it so: the rice grain was then at most the same size as now. Through feeding on a single rice grain a day, my body reached a state of extreme emaciation. Because of eating so little... the hair, rotted at its roots, fell from my body as I rubbed.

56. "Yet, Sariputta, by such conduct, by such practice, by such performance of austerities, I did not attain any superhuman states, any distinction in knowledge and vision worthy of the noble ones.

From the Maha Sihanada sutta, MN12
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DNS
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Re: Does been a vegetarian mean gods are with you?

Post by DNS »

pilgrim wrote:"Sariputta, . . .
From the Maha Sihanada sutta, MN12
I believe that is referring to using certain foods for ritualistic means; claiming that certain foods are good for various kinds of purification rituals and for asceticism, not necessarily for vegetarianism.
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DNS
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Re: Does been a vegetarian mean gods are with you?

Post by DNS »

I believe a vegetarian diet can be either unwholesome, neutral, or wholesome.

If the intention is for self-aggrandizement, to belittle and ridicule omnivores, then that would be unwholesome.

If the intention is only for eating healthy and nutritious diet, then perhaps neutral kamma, neither good nor bad.

If the intention is to contribute to less killing and harm to animals; then that would be wholesome. (Referring to lay people, not monks who receive what is placed in alms bowls.)
mature Buddhists think not just of the effects their actions have on themselves but the effects they have on others also, and whether one kills an animal with one's own hands or buys meat from a supermarket, in both cases a sentient being is dead as a result. Consequently, there are Buddhists who feel that by not eating meat they are helping to lessen some of the cruelty in the world, and to this degree vegetarianism is more consistent with the general spirit of the first Precept.
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chownah
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Re: Does been a vegetarian mean gods are with you?

Post by chownah »

David N. Snyder wrote:
pilgrim wrote:"Sariputta, . . .
From the Maha Sihanada sutta, MN12
I believe that is referring to using certain foods for ritualistic means; claiming that certain foods are good for various kinds of purification rituals and for asceticism, not necessarily for vegetarianism.
The excerpt says "there are certain recluses and brahmans whose doctrine and view is this: 'Purification comes about through food.' They say: 'Let us live on beans'... 'Let us live on sesamum'... 'Let us live on rice,'
Does this sound like "for ritualistic means"....or does it sound like this is their everyday diet? To me it sounds like the budhha is talking about people who think that eating a certain diet can purify them. I don't think that this points directly at vegetarianism but I think it was posted here to point to the buddha's description of the fallacy of thinking that puification comes about through food.
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SarathW
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Re: Does been a vegetarian mean gods are with you?

Post by SarathW »

Intention, intention, intention
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
jackson
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Re: Does been a vegetarian mean gods are with you?

Post by jackson »

Ben wrote: Yes, very good scriptural support and quite a bit of it, as well. I suggest you research suttas on the Buddha's refutation of the Nigantha's view on kamma and also research the origin of the schism led by Devadutta.
Thank you kindly Ben, it's always humbling to see where I'm lacking in understanding, and the schism caused by Devadatta had completely slipped my mind. Much appreciated.
"The heart of the path is quite easy. There’s no need to explain anything at length. Let go of love and hate and let things be. That’s all that I do in my own practice." - Ajahn Chah
SarathW
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Re: Does been a vegetarian mean gods are with you?

Post by SarathW »

Meat-eating

In western countries vegetarianism has recently increased in popularity and this has led to some questioning about bhikkhus and meat-eating. (In less materially developed countries the question is more about 'what, if anything, is there to eat?')

The question of monks' eating meat is an old one that was originally raised by the 'renegade monk' Ven. Devadatta. He asked the Buddha to prohibit bhikkhus from eating fish and flesh in what seems was a ploy to take over the leadership of the Sangha. (The 'stricter ascetic' tactic.) The Buddha had already made a strict rule for both bhikkhus and lay people about not taking life (see Killing.) so He did not agree to Ven. Devadatta's new formulation.

The Buddha did allow bhikkhus to eat meat and fish[88] except under the following circumstances:

If a bhikkhu sees, hears or suspects that it has been killed for him, he may not eat it.[89] (M.I,369)

If a bhikkhu is given meat on alms round and he has no knowledge about how the animal died[90] he has to 'receive it with attentiveness.' (See the Sekhiya Trainings.) He should be grateful and recollect that the food he is given is what enables him to continue to live the bhikkhu life, and that as a mendicant he is not in a position to choose what he gets. If he later comes to know the family and they ask him about Dhamma, he will be able to explain the precept about not killing. This may cause them to reflect on their attitude to meat eating.

An individual lay person can choose whether to be a vegetarian. Problems usually arise only when vegetarians want to impose their choice on others, and as meal times are normally a family or shared affair this can create tensions and misunderstandings.

An individual bhikkhu who lives on alms food cannot make such choices. Often the donors are unknown — perhaps not even Buddhist, or just starting to find out about Dhamma — and to refuse their generosity may so offend them that they never have anything to do with Dhamma again.

Finally it comes down to the lay people who go to the market to buy food to give to the bhikkhus. If they are vegetarian themselves or like to give vegetarian food, then the bhikkhu should receive that food with 'appreciation' — especially if it means that fewer animals are being slaughtered. Nevertheless, it should not become a political issue where other people are attacked for their behavior.


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“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Ben
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Re: Does been a vegetarian mean gods are with you?

Post by Ben »

jackson wrote:
Ben wrote: Yes, very good scriptural support and quite a bit of it, as well. I suggest you research suttas on the Buddha's refutation of the Nigantha's view on kamma and also research the origin of the schism led by Devadutta.
Thank you kindly Ben, it's always humbling to see where I'm lacking in understanding, and the schism caused by Devadatta had completely slipped my mind. Much appreciated.
No worries Jackson. If you have easy access to the Majjhima Nikaya, you will find some of the suttas where the Buddha refutes the Niganthas ideology on kamma there. From memory, Helmut Hecker's biography of Devadatta (edited by Bhikkhu Bodhi and published in 'Great Disciples of the Buddha') is excellent. GDotB will reference the relevant suttas in the Nikayas. GDotB is also an excellent reference work as well as inspiration.
Kind regards,
Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
jackson
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Re: Does been a vegetarian mean gods are with you?

Post by jackson »

Ben wrote: No worries Jackson. If you have easy access to the Majjhima Nikaya, you will find some of the suttas where the Buddha refutes the Niganthas ideology on kamma there. From memory, Helmut Hecker's biography of Devadatta (edited by Bhikkhu Bodhi and published in 'Great Disciples of the Buddha') is excellent. GDotB will reference the relevant suttas in the Nikayas. GDotB is also an excellent reference work as well as inspiration.
Kind regards,
Ben
Thank you for the references, I have both those books so will do further research. I'm grateful for your help and the contributions of all the knowledgeable people on this forum. :anjali:
"The heart of the path is quite easy. There’s no need to explain anything at length. Let go of love and hate and let things be. That’s all that I do in my own practice." - Ajahn Chah
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