the great vegetarian debate

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
kao1306
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The Traditional Theravada Buddhist Monks Are Not Vegetarians

Post by kao1306 »

Based On Visuddhimagga, We Can See Very Clearly That The Traditional Theravada Buddhist Monks Are Not Vegetarians.
@VISUDDHIMAGGA 40. This too has three grades. Herein, for one who is strict, except at the time of eating sugarcane, it is not allowed [while eating] to throw rubbish away, and it is not allowed while eating to break up rice-lumps, fish, meat and cakes. [The rubbish should be thrown away and the rice-lumps, etc., broken up before starting to eat.] The medium one is allowed to break them up with one hand while eating; and he is called a 'hand ascetic'. The mild one is called a 'bowl ascetic'; anything that can be put into his bowl he is allowed, while eating, to break up, [that is, rice lumps, etc.,] with his hand or [such things as palm sugar, ginger, etc.,] with his teeth.
----VISUDDHIMAGGA-II. THE ASCETIC PRACTICES -vi. The bowl-food-eater
http://realtruthlife.blogspot.tw/2011/0 ... A2JstJK2MY
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Mkoll
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Re: The Traditional Theravada Buddhist Monks Are Not Vegetar

Post by Mkoll »

Welcome to the forum!

I suggest this thread be merged with "the great vegetarian debate."
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
plwk
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Re: The Traditional Theravada Buddhist Monks Are Not Vegetar

Post by plwk »

And the point is, kao?
chownah
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Re: The Traditional Theravada Buddhist Monks Are Not Vegetar

Post by chownah »

kao1306,
What you have shown is about the rules.....you have said nothing about what any particular monk ate. Since many monks abide by the rules it seems likely that many ate meat and fish but this is not to say that all monks followed the rules nor does it show that in some places perhaps meat and fish were not offered to monks.
chownah
kao1306
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the Buddha Is Not A Vegetarian

Post by kao1306 »

Obviously, the Buddha Is Not A Vegetarian!
@StoryOfBuddha 69. To impress the other monks and nuns and disrupt the Sangha, Devadatta asked the Buddha to make stricter rules of conduct for the Sangha. He asked that monks not be allowed to sleep in houses or eat any meat. But the Buddha refused Devadatta's proposal. He said: "If some monks prefer to sleep in the open or not eat meat, they are free to do so. But if they do not wish to live this way they do not have to." Finally, the Buddha said: "Devadatta, if you try to break up the Sangha you will reap the evil fruits."
....... Story Of Buddha No.69
http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/buddhism/069bio.htm
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Ben
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Re: the Buddha Is Not A Vegetarian

Post by Ben »

Was not a vegetarian!
The Buddha died 2500 years ago so he ceased to be or not be anything quite a long time ago.
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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DNS
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Re: the Buddha Is Not A Vegetarian

Post by DNS »

kao1306 wrote:Obviously, the Buddha Is Not A Vegetarian!
Hi kao,

Your 2 posts so far have been about how the monks and the Buddha are not vegetarians. Vegetarian and non-vegetarian don't apply, they consume whatever food is offered to them. Perhaps flexitarian would be a better term; living by the 3 fold rule. If lay people only gave them vegetarian food, then yes, they would be (de-facto) vegetarians. And they would not be allowed to complain about it or request meat.
kao1306
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Traditional Theravada Buddhist Monks Are Not Vegetarians-#2

Post by kao1306 »

Many Instances, In The Visuddhimagga, Reveal The Facts That The Traditional Theravada Buddhist Monks Are Not Vegetarians.
@Visuddhimagga (I,78): Indirect talk is talk that keeps near [to the subject]. And here there should be told the story of the bhikkhu supported by a family. A bhikkhu, it seems, who was supported by a family went into the house wanting to eat and sat down. The mistress of the house was unwilling to give. On seeing him she said, 'There is no rice', and she went to a neighbour's house as though to get rice. The bhikkhu went into the . Looking round, he saw sugarcane in the corner behind the door, sugar in a bowl, a string of salt fish in a basket, rice in a jar, and ghee in a pot. He came out and sat down. When the housewife came back, she said, 'I did not get any rice'. The bhikkhu said, 'Lay follower, I saw a sign just now that alms will not be easy to get today'.— 'What, venerable sir?' — 'I saw a snake that was like sugarcane put in the corner behind the door; looking for something to hit it with, I saw a stone like a lump of sugar in a bowl. When the snake had been hit with the clod, it spread out a hood like a string of salt fish in a basket, and its teeth as it tried to bite the clod were like rice grains in a jar. Then the saliva mixed with poison that came out to its mouth in its fury was like ghee put in a pot'. She thought, 'There is no hoodwinking the shaveling', so she gave him the sugarcane and she cooked the rice and gave it all to him with the ghee, the sugar and the fish.
----Visuddhimagga‧I.description of virtue‧78.Indirect talk
http://thepathofpurification.blogspot.t ... -i-78.html
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cooran
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Re: Traditional Theravada Buddhist Monks Are Not Vegetarians

Post by cooran »

http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/dha ... /fdd44.htm

The Vissudhimagga was written in Sri Lanka by Buddhaghosa about eight or nine hundred years after the Buddha lived.

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kao1306
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by kao1306 »

Commentary On Chuang Tzu--A Real Vegetarian? Or A Fake Vegetarian?

Are You A Real Vegetarian? Or A Fake Vegetarian? The Vegetarian Of The Body Is The Vegetarian Appropriate To Sacrificing, Which Is The Fake Vegetarian; Yet, The Vegetarian Of The Mind Is The Real Vegetarian. @ChuangTzu Yan Hui said, 'I can go no farther; I venture to ask the method from you.' Zhongni replied, 'It is vegetarian, (as) I will tell you. (But) when you have the method, will you find it easy to practise it? He who thinks it easy will be disapproved of by the bright Heaven.' Hui said, 'My family is poor. For months together we have no spirituous drink, nor do we eat meat or any strong-smelling vegetables;-- can this be regarded as vegetarian?' The reply was, 'It is the vegetarian appropriate to sacrificing, but it is not the vegetarian of the mind.' 'I venture to ask what that vegetarian of the mind is,' said Hui, and Zhongni answered, 'Maintain a perfect unity in every movement of your will, You will not wait for the hearing of your ears about it, but for the hearing of your mind. You will not wait even for the hearing of your mind, but for the hearing of the spirit. Let the hearing (of the ears) rest with the ears. Let the mind rest in the verification (of the rightness of what is in the will). But the spirit is free from all pre-occupation and so waits for (the appearance of) things. Where the (proper) course is, there is freedom from all pre-occupation; such freedom is the vegetarian of the mind.'
http://ctext.org/all-texts?filter=527212
thepea
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by thepea »

I've been watching House of cards on Netflix, and there are some interesting insights into our cravings for flesh.
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Ron-The-Elder
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Ron-The-Elder »

thepea wrote:I've been watching House of cards on Netflix, and there are some interesting insights into our cravings for flesh.
Having done a "binge-watch" of that entire series, my conclusion was that it was all about power. Flesh seemed to hold a close second place. :thinking:
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
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nekete
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Re: the Buddha Is Not A Vegetarian

Post by nekete »

David N. Snyder wrote:
kao1306 wrote:Obviously, the Buddha Is Not A Vegetarian!
Hi kao,

Your 2 posts so far have been about how the monks and the Buddha are not vegetarians. Vegetarian and non-vegetarian don't apply, they consume whatever food is offered to them. Perhaps flexitarian would be a better term; living by the 3 fold rule. If lay people only gave them vegetarian food, then yes, they would be (de-facto) vegetarians. And they would not be allowed to complain about it or request meat.
Yes. I was going to say the same. :)

Hi Kao. Do you want me to give you links and opinions of monks talking about being vegetarians??
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Ron-The-Elder
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Ron-The-Elder »

I believe the word is "omnivore":
noun
an animal or person that eats food of both plant and animal origin.
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
A fool from HK
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Meat problem, conflict between Theravada and Mahayana

Post by A fool from HK »

I know that the buddha in general does not forbid his followers to eat 3 types of meat. (In chinese we call them something like 3 types of "clean" meat)

However, I just saw a video of a Mahayana nun saying that according to the vinayapiṭaka the 3 types of meat can only be eaten by sick follower. She then quote a Mahayana sutra saying that the buddha has forbiden his followers to eat meat after his parinibbāna. She then conclude that the 3 types of meat do not exsit anymore and hence eating meat will break the 1st precept.

I admit that I feel a bit angry about those Mahayana monks and nuns as I think that, not just about the issue of meat, they lead us away from the true teaching of the buddha and bring superstition to buddhism. I even doubt that if they are true buddhist monks and nuns.

I have the following questions:

1. Can someone please share some reference of the buddha words on the meat issue?
2. Is my attitude towords the Mahayana monks and nuns inappropiate? In my mind I even excluded them from the Sangha.

Thanks.
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