the great vegetarian debate

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

Spiny Norman wrote:
clw_uk wrote:
lyndon taylor wrote:And insects are sentient on par with a cow, a pig or a chicken??
So it's ok to kill insects?
What I think isn't OK is not caring what get's killed to satisfy a dietary preference.

I agree but sometimes people need to buy meat out of economic necessity.

Therefore it doesn't always =bad kamma
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Aloka
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Aloka »

clw_uk wrote:
... but sometimes people need to buy meat out of economic necessity.
Why is that ? A vegetarian alternative isn't more expensive than meat.
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Cittasanto
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Cittasanto »

seeker242 wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:Hi Seeker,
We are actually talking about the first point I quoted from Buddhanet. Which is
(1) If the Buddha had felt that a meatless diet was in accordance with the Precepts he would have said so and in the Pali Tipitaka at least, he did not.[Devadatta's rule not being taken up at the first schism being an example]
As I am sticking to this point for our discussion, and (as we had moved on) whether the Buddha would speak out or not. I was trying to point out other examples which makes me believe The Buddha would not say more than is recorded. So if you wish to talk about the meat industry, and the problems of certain practices specifically you need to have a point that is used against the vegetarian proponents by those who say being vegetarian is not necessary within Buddhism, and not an unrelated point to that.

The vague references are actually easily found, and some of which are all over the Sutta & Vinaya.
OK. :smile: I'm just saying that if I were personally alive during the Buddhas lifetime and I personally asked him about battery cages and purchasing animals from meat that was from animals raised in battery cages. I find it difficult to believe that he would just turn around, walk away and say nothing. Especially so given how unethical the practice is. Personally, I think the only way to really know for sure, what he would or would not say, would be to actually ask him. But of course that isn't possible because he's dead. :)

:anjali:
Wouldn't that be backbiting?
I believe it reasonable to assume you aren't engaged in the practice or industry yourself, and the two examples of the actor (SN42.2) and warrior (SN42.3) being described in negative terms were to those in that profession, and even then it focused on what they had said specifically rather than other aspects. If The Buddha would speak on such matters it would probably be too someone in the industry. To others it may focus on right intention and the Brahma-viharas rather than specifics of the job.
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Spiny Norman
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Spiny Norman »

clw_uk wrote:
Spiny Norman wrote:
What I think isn't OK is not caring what get's killed to satisfy a dietary preference.

I agree but sometimes people need to buy meat out of economic necessity.

Therefore it doesn't always =bad kamma
Yes, but I think most of us have the choice, and in my experience a vegetarian diet is cheaper than one based on meat.
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beeblebrox
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by beeblebrox »

Another food for thought: (this is more in the line of a Jainist perspective, rather than Theravadan Buddhism:)

Most of the plants which produce vegetables have a natural lifespan of less than one year. This is from sprout to death. I think that those which are perennial (like artichokes, or asparagus) usually aren't destroyed, even commercially.

Also, for most of the vegetables that are harvested, their plants actually don't have to be destroyed either. That is true even for something like lettuce, if it is harvested in a certain way (usually it is cut off by the whole head)... but with some of others, like onion or a carrot, the whole thing is still uprooted, anyway.

Carrot is also a biennial... meaning that its complete lifespan is two years.

Cows have a natural lifespan of 15-20 years, and chickens even have a lifespan of 8-12 years.

Insects on the other hand, I think have a very short lifespan.

Personally, I still don't like to kill an insect. (Just for the record.)

:anjali:
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Freelance ExBuddhist »

The single most-debated source from the Pali canon on this subject relies on some suspicious text inserted in square brackets.

QUOTE
“[Many people] claim that he said it was OK to eat flesh as long as you yourself have not seen, heard, or suspected that the animal was killed especially for you…
On the second point, if one reads the relevant Pali scripture carefully, one sees that the phrase ‘killed especially for oneself’ is not used by the Buddha. It is interpolated (in parentheses) by later commentators.”[...]

The crucial step here (from ignorance toward knowing something meaningful) is the willingness to recognize the difference between the original source text and “later interpolations”. This is a blindingly obvious point that was missed (or intentionally ignored?) in many works by supposed experts.
CLOSE QUOTE

[url]SOURCE: https://medium.com/p/c636fa4f37dd[/url]

That's a link to a long article with much worth knowing in it, for anyone sincerely engaged with the issue from a Theravada perspective.
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DNS
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by DNS »

Interesting article. It looks like you have appreciation for the Buddha's teachings and that your beef (pardon the pun) is with Buddhists.

So is it your opinion that meat-eating is not fitting with the Buddha's path and that Buddhists have made excuses? Or is there some translation issue with some of the texts that seem to allow it?
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by TheNoBSBuddhist »

willingness to recognize the difference between the original source text and “later interpolations”. This is a blindingly obvious point that was missed (or intentionally ignored?) in many works by supposed experts.
I'm wondering how he can cite 'original source texts' when nobody living currently could possibly know precisely what was witten at the time....

How can we, with any authority state for certain precisely how the texts read?

All we can do, surely, is study and reflect on what we know is there NOW.
All we can do is to cogitate, meditate and ponder what we learn, and digest the teachings as they speak to us now, and decide, on that scrutiny, what the basis of our practice is.

Or am I being hopelessly thick, here?
:namaste:

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daverupa
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by daverupa »

TheNoBSBuddhist wrote:Or am I being hopelessly thick, here?
Just off-topic, sort of, but these huge threads are monsters anyway.

Textual authenticity is one question that's often discussed throughout the forum, but not something that can get easily summed at the bottom of a vegetarian thread-bin.

Try exploring e.g. the Early Buddhism area for topics of that sort.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Anagarika
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Anagarika »

TheNoBSBuddhist wrote:
willingness to recognize the difference between the original source text and “later interpolations”. This is a blindingly obvious point that was missed (or intentionally ignored?) in many works by supposed experts.
I'm wondering how he can cite 'original source texts' when nobody living currently could possibly know precisely what was witten at the time....

Or am I being hopelessly thick, here?
I'm pleased that this year there has been some attention paid to the authentication of the early primary Pali texts, and that there is something of a return of the idea that the answers to some of the "What did the Buddha instruct on this issue?" questions can be found in the earliest texts, before, as was pointed out, interpolation and augmentation of the discourses that were promulgated by the Buddha, captured in the oral tradition, and later 'authenticated' and written down. I do feel it's not correct to fall back on a "we really don't know what the Buddha really said, so why even make the effort?" when strong scholarship is being done that authenticates to a reasonable degree of accuracy a significant amount of the teachings as found in the primary four Nikayas. Others have made the point correctly that many 'experts' in Buddhism have never bothered to learn enough Pali to read the texts, or have simply not bothered to read competent translations of the early Pali texts. Many of these experts then teach others, who carry forward the mistaken interpretations or lazy scholarship.

It's my nonexpert sense that when we struggle with questions of what the Buddha taught on certain key issues in dispute, we have in the primary source texts the answers, or at least a strong suggestion of what the Buddha's position on a subject is (ie dependent origination, kamma and rebirth, meat eating, etc). We need not speculate, or rely on suspect (albeit longstanding) opinions, when some good scholarship is being done on the DN, SN, MN, AN texts. We have within and outside the Theravada community some Pali scholars that can provide direction on these issues, and even when the scholars disagree about, for example, the interpretation of a Pali word or phrase, we can then measure these interpretations with our own reason and sense of the text as a whole.

It's some heavy lifting to really dig into these texts for the answers, but I for one feel fortunate that others have done (Eisel Mazard being one scholar among others on the cutting edge), and are now doing, the digging, heavy lifting, and construction that I would be unable to do. I may have confusion with, for example, a fine point made in one of Eisel Mazard's blog contributions, but just having the scholarship there to measure against others ( such as Ven. Thanissaro, or Ven. Bodhi, or Vens. Brahmali and Sujato) makes the investigation enjoyable, and brings to present life some sense of what the Buddha actually intended.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Freelance ExBuddhist »

(1) Re: "How can we, with any authority state for certain precisely how the texts read?"

In the specific instance mentioned (with the link to the article provided) we know precisely what the ancient text does not say. In this case, modern "interpreters" have added a whole phrase (with a concept not stated in the text), so we are not debating the significance of the canon in the abstract, but looking at a case of modern people intentionally mis-representing (if not re-writing) what the text plainly does say.

(2.1) Those are flattering words from Anagarika: sadly, however, my career in Pali has been over for several years now, and I will never again attempt the type of heavy lifting you describe.

You can read an interview about the final chapter of that career, here: https://medium.com/p/9df3f5f826e4

I no longer have any possibility of returning to work on Pali (nor any other form of Buddhist text).

(2.2) I agree, that this is the general situation: a majority of people depend on a small number who do (as Anagarika says) the heavy lifting. This is another reason why fraud and intellectual dishonesty (amongst that small number of people) can be so harmful (in the 21st century); the relationship is indeed one of dependency. Even amongst scholars, a relatively large number of researchers need to turn to a tiny number of Pali scholars to answer questions about what the texts do (and do not) say.

On this issue (vegetarianism) good luck getting an honest answer out of anyone (layman or monk); instead, we have a thousand years of people saying, "Don't worry, my butcher is muslim", and (the laziest excuse at all!), "There's no bad karma if you don't think about it, because karma only arises from mindful intention" --a doctrine that does, in fact, endorse mindless killing (!) as superior to mindfulness of the consequences of what you're doing, buying etc.

(3) I do not sympathize with the tendency to offer contrived cynicism about the possibility of knowing anything from the study of ancient texts. If you're looking for a religion based on pious ignorance, Theravada Buddhism is the wrong choice. I find that people only offer this cynical disclaimer when it suits them (e.g., in this case, as an excuse for eating meat, "Well, how can we really know what the ancient texts were supposed to say?") and then allow themselves to uncritically adopt other material without any skepticism.

The generalized lament of, "How can we know anything about ancient authors at all?" is certainly a strange contrast to the active, engaged attitude of scholars in establishing (e.g.) what we can (and cannot) know about an ancient author like Plato. I have a separate youtube video addressing this: we can and do know a great deal about the ancient philosophy of the Buddha, in exactly the same way that we know as much as we do about the philosophy of Aristotle --and it is, indeed, hard work (and heavy lifting).
http://youtu.be/GzOcSpxKVoA

I think it is very sad when people pretend that any of this is "unknowable"; I think that is simply an abdication of responsibility for one's own ignorance (and, BTW, the Buddha has a lot to say against ignorance).

Returning to this specific example (vegetarianism): as I argued in that article, the reality is that most people don't know what the canon says about it, precisely because there is so much dishonesty and discomfort for Buddhists themselves in confronting what those ancient texts say --and what the ancient philosophy really is (and isn't). I say that with some degree of sympathy for the people involved: for most people, it is very difficult to accept that their own grandparents were wrong, and that the opinions about Buddhism passed down in their own family may be deeply flawed (even if it is relative to the writ of the Pali canon).
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lyndon taylor
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by lyndon taylor »

I must admit I have long had a suspicion that the strength of the buddha's anti meat eating sentiment has been much diluted in scripture and commentary, I am interested to hear more about this.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

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panang
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by panang »

I realize this has been discussed in a great amount already, but I thought I'd just give my thoughts. Sorry in advance is I sound preachy.

I am a strict vegan. I do not eat meat, fish, dairy, eggs, honey, or any animal products or by products. I know what even minute animal products are, and try to avoid them by reading labels, and such. The products I use are vegan to the greatest extent I can find. I don't wear leather, wool, cashmere. And, all of my other products I try to buy vegan. At home, I do not expect my family to prepare two meals, so I make my own food, and no one is bothered.

In my opinion, if you eat meat, you are inadvertently increasing the demand for meat. And, you are indirectly contributing to the death of animals. Even if you eat dairy, you are still contributing to the suffering of female dairy cows, and the killing of male calves for veal. You may not think so, but even if meat is offered to you, or it is already "dead", you still are perpetuating the demand for meat. And, in my opinion any of that is breaking the 1st precept.

Not many people would be offended if you denied an offer of meat. I do it all the time, and so far no one has been bothered. But, would you rather innocent beings die for you, or take the risk of someone maybe not liking you being vegetarian or vegan.

However, I try as well not to let it become a distraction. Most of the things I mentioned are second nature to me. So, none of it bothers my day to day life. If anything would be causing you harm, or causing you to become unmindful, do not partake. Taking things in small steps is best. :heart:
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by TheNoBSBuddhist »

Anagarika wrote:
TheNoBSBuddhist wrote:
willingness to recognize the difference between the original source text and “later interpolations”. This is a blindingly obvious point that was missed (or intentionally ignored?) in many works by supposed experts.
I'm wondering how he can cite 'original source texts' when nobody living currently could possibly know precisely what was witten at the time....

Or am I being hopelessly thick, here?
I do feel it's not correct to fall back on a "we really don't know what the Buddha really said, so why even make the effort?" when strong scholarship is being done that authenticates to a reasonable degree of accuracy a significant amount of the teachings as found in the primary four Nikayas.
Thank you for your long and considered reply;
Just one small, minor and apparently insignificant point:

I note you did not duplicate my post in full; So I am at pains to eagerly point out that the above snipped morsel, from your text, is in no way indicative of my attitude to this dilemma.
I have now been directed to consider other points of information, to which i will avail myself for further education.
But please do not give others, through mis-quoting my comments, the impression that I take my ignorance so lightly.

I thank you.

:namaste:

By the way, I would add, as a very tardy Edit - that I am indeed, vegetarian.
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by TheNoBSBuddhist »

I have for a long while, taken this instruction to be accurate;

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... .html#meat

Is this correct of me, or should i seek further input?
I'm certain it exists as is evident by comments in this thread - would pointing me in a different direction, reveal different instruction?
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



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Pay attention, simplify, and (Meditation instruction in a nutshell) "Mind - the Gap."
‘Absit invidia verbo’ - may ill-will be absent from the word. And mindful of that, if I don't respond, this may be why....
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