the great vegetarian debate

[samseva]

Hello,
As far as purchasing meat in a market goes, is paying for a steak or a chicken leg not implicitly a request for the further raising and slaughtering of animals? So, if one hasn't requested the slaughter of the particular animal on the foam deli tray, there is an expectation that more will be available when desired.

Hi, Sprouticus. We covered the topic of your questions in depth on the last 3-4 pages.

[chownah]

is paying for a steak or a chicken leg not implicitly a request for the further raising and slaughtering of animals?

No, it is not. The thought of the food coming from an animal does not even enter the mind of the usual steak or chicken leg eater so how could there be intention for such a request?
chownah

[Sprouticus]

Hello,
As far as purchasing meat in a market goes, is paying for a steak or a chicken leg not implicitly a request for the further raising and slaughtering of animals? So, if one hasn't requested the slaughter of the particular animal on the foam deli tray, there is an expectation that more will be available when desired.

Hi, Sprouticus. We covered the topic of your questions in depth on the last 3-4 pages.

Ok, thanks.

[Aloka]

.

This is a film which is worth watching, its from 'Dharma Voices for Animals':

This powerful and important film features interviews with world-renowned monastics and lay teachers including Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi, Jetsuma (Ven. Master) Tenzin Palmo, Ven. Bhante Gunaratana (Bhante G), Christopher Titmuss, Ven. Geshe Phelgye, teachers from Spirit Rock Meditation Center and many others.

phpBB .

source: http://dharmavoicesforanimals.org/who-we-are/

[Ron-The-Elder]

Slime Mold Can Learn without a Brain

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-04-27/s ... in/7363176" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Aloka]

Slime Mold Can Learn without a Brain

Do you eat slime mould, Ron ?

.

[seeker242]

Another good film to watch is called Earthling as this is why people become vegetarians...

phpBB .

[Ron-The-Elder]

Slime Mold Can Learn without a Brain

Do you eat slime mould, Ron ?

.

Yes, but not on purpose. They have learned to avoid me when I am eating, and now I know why!

[Mkoll]

Another good film to watch is called Earthling as this is why people become vegetarians...

phpBB .

Just a warning to those who've never seen it: this is a shocking and uncensored film and there is a lot of real cruelty in it. It's important to watch though—it's one thing to hear or read about cruelty and another to see it. It has a more visceral impact than any documentary I've ever seen on any subject, and I've seen more than a few.

[daverupa]

For documentaries there's also Our Daily Bread as well as Food, Inc. These may be better for the soft at heart.

[Mkoll]

For documentaries there's also Our Daily Bread as well as Food, Inc. These may be better for the soft at heart.

Forks Over Knives is another one in that category that is quite well known.

[D1W1]

It is in the Mahayana Lankavatara Sutra (and possibly other Mahayana sutras):

Mahamati, I see that living beings are in the transmigration of the six paths, being together in births and deaths, they give birth to and foster each others, and cyclically become fathers, mothers, brothers and sisters of each others; They may be men or women, may be the direct line of descent, may be cousins, affinities, uncles, aunts, sons, daughters, grandsons, and other various relatives of each others; They may also be born in other paths(of animal, ghost, god, and so on.), whether virtuous or evil, they frequently become the relatives of each others. Because of these relationships, I see that all meats eaten by living beings are of their own relatives. Due to the greed for flavors of meats, the living beings circularly eat each others

Actually this doe not say what D1W1 has given. On the contrary it seems to contradict what he has given i.e. it says nothing about a debt that must be repaid.
chownah

So what is your interpretation of this quote from the Lankavatara:

"Because of these relationships, I see that all meats eaten by living beings are of their own relatives. Due to the greed for flavors of meats, the living beings circularly eat each others"

I am not saying I necessarily agree with the Lankavata quote, but notice where it talks of beings eating each other and it going "circularly" throughout samsara and it is due to the greed, craving for meat. That sounds a lot like what D1W1 said he heard quoted.

I think the interpretation is straight forward...really if you just read what it says it is pretty much clear. It says 1. It asserts that all sentient beings are related through rebirths and so all meats eaten are meat of ones own relatives.....D1W1 makes no mention of this. and 2. It asserts that it is the flavor of meat which is the operative principle for this circular eating of meat....while D1W1 asserts that he has heard that the operative principle is that when an individual eats meat then that individual has incurred a sort of kammic debt which must be repaid by having ones flesh eaten at some future rebirth.

Clearly these are two different things.
chownah

Hi all,

Sorry for getting back late.
chownah, I think it/Sutra is not supposed to be taken too literally.
Mahayana teaching strongly emphasizes the importance of saving all living beings and to attain Buddhahood.
I think what Mahayana practitioner meant was people killing animals are not for other reason but their meat. There is grudge involved, so I think it is viewed as "shared karma". Again, if one is vegetarian then that person automatically has cut the "karma of killing". As samsaric beings we can't be sure whether we will always become human or not. Some people say if you eat animal's flesh, that person also contributes to the killing but this is not exclusively from Mahayana POV, even Theravada practitioners can also say one contributes to the death animal when one eats meat.

[D1W1]

Sri Lankan monk set himself on fire, dies, in protest of cattle slaughter:

http://www.thebuddhism.net/2013/05/27/e ... es-away-2/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Sri Lankan monk set himself on fire, dies, in protest of cattle slaughter:..........

I think it was very unfortunate he had to undergo that suffering.
I think it's getting clearer to me that view/ activity or decision was his own.

[D1W1]

Lay Buddhists may eat any kind of food as long as they do not kill, urge to kill, permit killing, or speak in praise of it. The Vinaya rules do not apply to lay people.

Buddhist Monastic Discipline I — Food

Fish or meat, even if of an allowable kind, is unallowable if raw. Thus bhikkhus may not eat steak tartare, sashimi, oysters on the half-shell, raw eggs, caviar, etc. (Raw flesh and blood are allowed at Mv.VI.10.2 only when one is possessed by non-human beings (!)

Bhante, what's the reason monks cannot eat raw meat or fish?
Thanks

[Bhikkhu Pesala]

Bhante, what's the reason monks cannot eat raw meat or fish?
Thanks

Because the Vinaya says so. There's an exception if a monk is possessed by a demon.

Pragmatically, it is obviously a serious health risk.