the great vegetarian debate

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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TheNoBSBuddhist
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by TheNoBSBuddhist »

seeker242 wrote:
TheNoBSBuddhist wrote:
lyndon taylor wrote:Pretty biased link; laments that "vegetarians want to impose their choice upon others" but its perfectly OK for meat eaters to impose their choices on others.....
Well in my experience, it only ever happens that way round; ie, vegetarians wish to impose their views on meat-eaters, on self-righteous moral grounds.
It's really not always "on self-righteous moral grounds" IMO. A lot of times it's simply about concern for the suffering of animals and to want animals to stop suffering so much. A lot of vegetarians do want to impose their choice on others. Why? To help the animals.

:anjali:
I completely agree.
I worded it hastily, my choice of words could - and should - have been more in line with your observation.
I stand delightfully corrected.

:namaste:
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



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‘Absit invidia verbo’ - may ill-will be absent from the word. And mindful of that, if I don't respond, this may be why....
Spiny Norman
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Spiny Norman »

seeker242 wrote:It's really not always "on self-righteous moral grounds" IMO.
Very true. And why do moral grounds have to be "self-righteous" anyway?
Buddha save me from new-agers!
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TheNoBSBuddhist
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by TheNoBSBuddhist »

Spiny Norman wrote:
seeker242 wrote:It's really not always "on self-righteous moral grounds" IMO.
Very true. And why do moral grounds have to be "self-righteous" anyway?
oh, you know...... the words seem to flow so well together..... they seem destined to go hand-in-hand......

:tongue:


:jumping:
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



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Pay attention, simplify, and (Meditation instruction in a nutshell) "Mind - the Gap."
‘Absit invidia verbo’ - may ill-will be absent from the word. And mindful of that, if I don't respond, this may be why....
Spiny Norman
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Spiny Norman »

TheNoBSBuddhist wrote:
Spiny Norman wrote:
seeker242 wrote:It's really not always "on self-righteous moral grounds" IMO.
Very true. And why do moral grounds have to be "self-righteous" anyway?
oh, you know...... the words seem to flow so well together..... they seem destined to go hand-in-hand......

:tongue:
I don't feel self-righteous when I'm munching on my quorn fillets - I just know I'm doing right. Praise the Lord. :tongue:
Buddha save me from new-agers!
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TheNoBSBuddhist
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by TheNoBSBuddhist »

Spiny Norman wrote:.....
I don't feel self-righteous when I'm munching on my quorn fillets - I just know I'm doing right. Praise the Lord. :tongue:
....and pass the egg-free mayo..... :popcorn:
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



Image

Pay attention, simplify, and (Meditation instruction in a nutshell) "Mind - the Gap."
‘Absit invidia verbo’ - may ill-will be absent from the word. And mindful of that, if I don't respond, this may be why....
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panang
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by panang »

TheNoBSBuddhist wrote:
Spiny Norman wrote:.....
I don't feel self-righteous when I'm munching on my quorn fillets - I just know I'm doing right. Praise the Lord. :tongue:
....and pass the egg-free mayo..... :popcorn:

Took me a while to remember what Quorn fillets were. Never tried them, I eat Gardein mostly. And, yes to the egg free mayo!
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Ron-The-Elder
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Ron-The-Elder »

Ran across this plant neurobiology update in our lounge. Thought it may be of interest in this thread:

https://www.landesbioscience.com/journa ... B0258R.pdf :coffee:

_/\_Ron
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
chownah
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by chownah »

Ron-The-Elder wrote:Ran across this plant neurobiology update in our lounge. Thought it may be of interest in this thread:

https://www.landesbioscience.com/journa ... B0258R.pdf :coffee:

_/\_Ron
I scanned through the article but did not read all of it. I didn't see anything about vegetarianism in it. What about the article did you think applies to this thread?
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Ron-The-Elder »

chownah wrote:
Ron-The-Elder wrote:Ran across this plant neurobiology update in our lounge. Thought it may be of interest in this thread:

https://www.landesbioscience.com/journa ... B0258R.pdf :coffee:

_/\_Ron
I scanned through the article but did not read all of it. I didn't see anything about vegetarianism in it. What about the article did you think applies to this thread?
chownah
Hi, Chownah. Sorry for my lack of specificity. :embarassed:

In threads such as this, one of the common themes is the alleged moral superiority of vegetarianism / veganism justified by the idea that plants are not sentient and therefore, harvesting them, which means variously ripping them from the soil by their roots, reaping them by cutting them into various convenient parts and then chopping them with a very sharp knife, or shredding them, eating them, and then gloating due to our imagined moral superiority... causes less harm than butchering animals. :jawdrop:

My response to this theme has been that plants are way more sentient than we have previously known them to be. The article provided in my post is but another of my feeble attempts to continue to address this ignorance on our part.

Bottom line: " Life must consume the nutrients of life in order to live in these samsaric realms in which we animals and plants currently exist." Unless we change our diets to "deceased" life forms, become like vultures, we all cause harm to other sentient life in order to live. We all take that, which is not freely given by consuming fruit. "No moral superiority. ".....so best we stop lecturing others to make us feel that way. To do so is "wrong speech" not right, harmonious speech. :soap:
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
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lyndon taylor
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by lyndon taylor »

I'm sorry but this is a classic straw man argument to argue that plants have feelings like animals, even if plants have sensory ability, they don't have a brain, and cannot process pain and suffering like animals obviously can, obviously the moral high ground is causing the least suffering for sentient beings, not worshiping plants.

Also as we've gone through so many times before, most plants killed for food in America go to feed animals for meat for your dinner plate, so obviously no moral high ground here.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

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DNS
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by DNS »

^ Yes, I agree with what Lyndon wrote. And also, Ron's point is the Jain view. The Jains believe there is jiva or soul in plants. Buddhists do not believe this and rebirth is to Animal Kingdom and other celestial beings, not plants, minerals, microorganisms, etc.

And in any event, even in the Jain philosophy which believes in jiva in plants, they adopt vegetarianism, apparently to cause the least harm.
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TheNoBSBuddhist
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by TheNoBSBuddhist »

(...Is 'specificity' even a word.....?) :shock:
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



Image

Pay attention, simplify, and (Meditation instruction in a nutshell) "Mind - the Gap."
‘Absit invidia verbo’ - may ill-will be absent from the word. And mindful of that, if I don't respond, this may be why....
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Ron-The-Elder
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Ron-The-Elder »

TheNoBSBuddhist wrote:(...Is 'specificity' even a word.....?) :shock:
Yes! It is a word, and one any good biochemist uses frequently. :tongue:

from: Dictionary.com:
spec·i·fic·i·ty [spes-uh-fis-i-tee] Show IPA
noun
1.
the quality or state of being specific.
2.
Biochemistry, Pharmacology . the selective attachment or influence of one substance on another, as an antibiotic and its target organism or an antibody and its specific antigen.
Origin:
1875–80; specific + -ity

Related forms
non·spec·i·fic·i·ty, noun
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
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TheNoBSBuddhist
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by TheNoBSBuddhist »

As the old lady said,

"Die? I haven't got TIME to die my dear - I'm still too busy learning!!"

:namaste: - and thanks!
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



Image

Pay attention, simplify, and (Meditation instruction in a nutshell) "Mind - the Gap."
‘Absit invidia verbo’ - may ill-will be absent from the word. And mindful of that, if I don't respond, this may be why....
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Ron-The-Elder
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Ron-The-Elder »

David N. Snyder wrote:^ Yes, I agree with what Lyndon wrote. And also, Ron's point is the Jain view. The Jains believe there is jiva or soul in plants. Buddhists do not believe this and rebirth is to Animal Kingdom and other celestial beings, not plants, minerals, microorganisms, etc.

And in any event, even in the Jain philosophy which believes in jiva in plants, they adopt vegetarianism, apparently to cause the least harm.
I agree that a vegan life-style probably causes the least harm when killing other life-forms and eating them. As I said in my previous post, the only way to avoid this is to become a scavenger and to consume only already dead life-forms. :tongue: Then you will occupy the moral high-ground. :soap:
Dave, Yes, I have heard and read the "Jain" deflection before. I believe you pointed this out to me a year or so ago, when I posted a similar argument in another thread, which shows that we are both consistent with our arguments. But, there are Buddhists, who can read the latest scientific findings regarding plants, such as the one I provided, and can come to their own conclusions. Hopefully there are more than a few of those posting on this board. It seems (to me) foolish to believe that Buddha wanted us to stop learning about the true nature of ever evolving life-forms once he died. When Buddha asked of his Bhikkhus, "Which is larger, this number of leaves I hold in my hand or the number of leaves in the forest that surrounds us, he did not mean to say that because he didn't teach us all those other things that he knew, that we weren't free to discover and understand them for ourselves. Besides, what we "believe" is of little importance. Science allows us to discover, verify and validate the truth for ourselves. All we have to do is look and we can see the true nature of the life which surrounds us.

reference: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .wlsh.html

John, we have discussed this point many times before, and I don't expect to change your mind. All that I was trying to do was to provide recent scientific findings regarding the sentient nature of our sessile co-habitants of Planet Earth. :reading: Because their brains aren't located in their heads, like ours doesn't mean that they aren't conscious, sentient, sapient, and intelligent. Should you ever decide to read the recent article I provided in full, you will find that they have all of the sensory organs that we do, plus more effective ones on The Chemical plane as do dogs and bears, when compared to us humans.

Interestingly, plants occupied and adapated to the land far before animal creatures eventually evolving into us humans climbed from beneath the seas. And, if it wasn't for them, we wouldn't even have oxygen to breathe. Some other version of us would still be metabolizing sulfur as did our earliest ancestors, The Thermo-philes (Archaea).

resource: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermophile



That's all I got!
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
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