the great vegetarian debate

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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lyndon taylor
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Re: Vegetarians live longer

Post by lyndon taylor »

Well being a vegetarian obviously doesn't make you less healthy, one of the biggest pro meat eating arguements I hear is that you have to eat meat for your health and that a vegetarian diet leaves out key nutrients. at least we have evidence that arguement is bogus.

Obviously the Seventh Day Adventist sample group doesn't drink or smoke, however I thought the authors of the study were saying they had compensated for that in the Meat eating group. And I don't know how, but scientists are trying to tell us that some drinking lengthens our life.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/
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Doshin
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Re: Vegetarians live longer

Post by Doshin »

lyndon taylor wrote:Well being a vegetarian obviously doesn't make you less healthy, one of the biggest pro meat eating arguements I hear is that you have to eat meat for your health and that a vegetarian diet leaves out key nutrients. at least we have evidence that arguement is bogus.
".. but the relationship is not well established" goes both ways ;) In theory it could be more exercise, less alcohol/tobacco and lower weight could compensate for a any theoretical negative side-effects of being vegetarian. But the research can not establish/prove that either.
lyndon taylor wrote:Obviously the Seventh Day Adventist sample group doesn't drink or smoke, however I thought the authors of the study were saying they had compensated for that in the Meat eating group. And I don't know how, but scientists are trying to tell us that some drinking lengthens our life.
As I read the articles, all groups of diets that is compared, is found within the Seventh Day Adventists. The longer living group has many (known health improving) characteristics, one of them being the diet. But no research/conclusion on how much each factor affects the result.

This reminds of a story running some years ago, claiming that research showed that a glass of whine a day, could extent your life, and generally improve your health. When someone researched the origins of the story, it turned out that the research was made in California, and the people who could afford a glass of whine, also could afford better health insurances, hence the best medical care. The benefits of better healthcare outweighed the negative influence of daily alcohol/whine.

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lyndon taylor
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Re: Vegetarians live longer

Post by lyndon taylor »

Well then I can assure you that the meat eating Seventh Day Adventists do not drink or smoke either, so that makes the study quite effective, I don't think they would be any less likely to exercise either.SDA are about half vegetarian, half meat eating but they dont eat pork.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/
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Re: Vegetarians live longer

Post by SarathW »

"But there is the case where a certain woman or man, abandoning the taking of life, abstains from the taking of life, dwelling with rod laid down, knife laid down, scrupulous, merciful, compassionate for the welfare of all living beings. From performing & undertaking such kamma, then on the breakup of the body, after death, this person re-appears in the good destinations, in the heavenly world. Or, if he/she does not reappear... in the heavenly world, but instead returns to the human state, then wherever he/she is reborn, he/she is long-lived. This is the way leading to long life, namely being one who, abandoning the taking of life, abstains from the taking of life..."

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barcsimalsi
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Re: Vegetarians live longer

Post by barcsimalsi »

Long life or short life, rebirth is forcibly free so stop clinging to the old aggregates and enjoy some meat. :jumping:
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LG2V
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Re: Vegetarians live longer

Post by LG2V »

I believe this to be true. I've had some health problems clear up after switching to a lacto-ovo vegetarian diet. I think it also helps one avoid many of the dangers of intestinal/bodily parasites. That being said, I still haven't found a way to consume a completely vegan diet and maintain adequate energy levels, although I'd like to. Though, in my case the issue is complicated by food allergies.

EDIT: Corrected a typo.
Last edited by LG2V on Wed Jul 03, 2013 10:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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alan
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Re: Vegetarians live longer

Post by alan »

Healthy people live longer. They eat the appropriate amount of meat.
They also lift weights and do yoga. Healthy people make it their business to know what is right for the body--they don't subscribe to any one school of thought, they do what works.
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lyndon taylor
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Re: Vegetarians live longer

Post by lyndon taylor »

But the study is comparing healthy people who eat meat, to healthy people that don't, and the ones that don't live some years longer. The SDA church encourages all their members to eat healthily, whether they are vegetarian or not, and that's who the stduy is based on.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/
daverupa
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Re: Vegetarians live longer

Post by daverupa »

The study allowed "vegetarians" to define those who also ate seafood, eggs, and dairy, which I found interesting since many vegetarians argue against those aspects of diet as well.

It seems only the landwalking meats were a problem; get them in egg form or swimming around, and there was no difference between that diet and a strict veggie one.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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lyndon taylor
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Re: Vegetarians live longer

Post by lyndon taylor »

Vegetarian by definition can eat eggs and dairy, its vegan that don't. The study did not compare vegetarian to vegan, as I imagine there are too few vegan SDAs to make a study.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/
daverupa
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Re: Vegetarians live longer

Post by daverupa »

lyndon taylor wrote:Vegetarian by definition can eat eggs and dairy, its vegan that don't.
Ah ha, I see.
The study did not compare vegetarian to vegan, as I imagine there are too few vegan SDAs to make a study.
Well, from the abstract:
Diet was assessed at baseline by a quantitative food frequency questionnaire and categorized into 5 dietary patterns: nonvegetarian, semi-vegetarian, pesco-vegetarian, lacto-ovo–vegetarian, and vegan.
In more detail:
Dietary patterns were determined according to the reported intake of foods of animal origin. Thus,

vegans consumed eggs/dairy, fish, and all other meats less than 1 time/mo;
lacto-ovo–vegetarians consumed eggs/dairy 1 time/mo or more but fish and all other meats less than 1 time/mo;
pesco-vegetarians consumed fish 1 time/mo or more but all other meats less than 1 time/mo;
semi-vegetarians consumed nonfish meats 1 time/mo or more and all meats combined (fish included) 1 time/mo or more but no more than 1 time/wk;
and last, nonvegetarians consumed nonfish meats 1 time/mo or more and all meats combined (fish included) more than 1 time/wk.

For some analyses, the 4 vegetarian categories (vegan, lacto-ovo–vegetarian, pesco-vegetarian, and semi-vegetarian) were combined as “vegetarian.”
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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lyndon taylor
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Re: Vegetarians live longer

Post by lyndon taylor »

I think if you look at the sample size of the different groups, you'll see the prevalence of the different groups among SDAs'

Obviously their combining of four categories like that is not very well thought out.

I still don't think the study compared vegan to vegetarian, but rather lumped them together, in all my experience being raised strict vegetarian SDA in Loma Linda where the study was based, I've never heard of SDA vegans like you do in traditional vegetarian groups, its all based on the teachings of their founder and she never said anything against eating eggs and dairy, as far as I know, so like I said I would predict any study based on SDAs is going to have a very small sample of vegans, and about 50% true lacto ovo vegetarians.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/
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lyndon taylor
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Re: Vegetarians live longer

Post by lyndon taylor »

I should point out that SDA teachings have nothing whatsoever to do with reducing suffering for animals, and everything to do with personal health. In fact Loma Linda University Medical Centre has had and has one of the biggest animal experimentation facilities in Southern California, they actually kept Chimps locked up in small cages just so dental students could practise oral surgery, and all their infant heart surgery was practised on sheep, Brain surgery experiments done on stray cats etc etc etc.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/
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Mojo
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Mojo »

Mojo wrote:I'm considering moving from an ovo-lacto vegetarian diet to a vegan one. I'm going to discuss it wit my doctor at my next physical.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

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In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
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