the great vegetarian debate

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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mikenz66
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Re: Beef?

Post by mikenz66 »

A slightly peripheral observation to add to Manapa's excellent post is that in my experience many Thai people simply don't like red meat, and I guess that may also be the case in other countries such as Sri Lanka...

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Re: Beef?

Post by DNS »

This question naturally leads into the debate over vegetarianism vs. non-vegetarian diets, discussed here:

http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=805" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The prohibition on certain meats are in regard to what a monastic cannot accept as alms food. Otherwise they abide by the 3 fold rule, accepting what is offered to them. Lay people must choose what to eat.
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Re: Beef?

Post by Cittasanto »

good point David
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Re: Beef?

Post by jcsuperstar »

mikenz66 wrote:A slightly peripheral observation to add to Manapa's excellent post is that in my experience many Thai people simply don't like red meat, and I guess that may also be the case in other countries such as Sri Lanka...

Mike
also mae kwan im (kwan yin) plays a part in why a lot of thai people dont eat beef.
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Re: Beef?

Post by suanck »

jcsuperstar wrote: also mae kwan im (kwan yin) plays a part in why a lot of thai people dont eat beef.
I agree. I've met some Thais who don't eat beef (cow, buffalo meat), and I believe they're originally from the Chinese ethnic group, and are influenced by the Kwan-Yin sect.

You may like to read an interesting article on the Wikipedia "Taboo food and drink", http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taboo_food_and_drink

Extract:
"... Some ethnic Chinese may also refrain from eating cow meat, because many of them feel that it is wrong to eat an animal that was so useful in agriculture. Some Chinese Buddhists discourage the consumption of beef, although it is not considered taboo. A similar taboo can be seen among Sinhalese Buddhists, who consider it to be ungrateful to kill the animal whose milk and labour provides livelihoods to many Sinhalese people."

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Re: Beef?

Post by Paññāsikhara »

suanck wrote:
jcsuperstar wrote: also mae kwan im (kwan yin) plays a part in why a lot of thai people dont eat beef.
I agree. I've met some Thais who don't eat beef (cow, buffalo meat), and I believe they're originally from the Chinese ethnic group, and are influenced by the Kwan-Yin sect.
Thanks for the info on Avalokitesvara in Thailand, many often overlook all these sorts of teachings and beliefs in SE asia, on a text book assumption that they are "Theravada countries". Things are seldom so simple.
You may like to read an interesting article on the Wikipedia "Taboo food and drink", http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taboo_food_and_drink

Extract:
"... Some ethnic Chinese may also refrain from eating cow meat, because many of them feel that it is wrong to eat an animal that was so useful in agriculture. Some Chinese Buddhists discourage the consumption of beef, although it is not considered taboo. A similar taboo can be seen among Sinhalese Buddhists, who consider it to be ungrateful to kill the animal whose milk and labour provides livelihoods to many Sinhalese people."

Suan
The general point about Chinese is basically correct. In trad Chinese culture, the ox if for plowing the fields, you don't around killing and eating your only tractor! The consumption of dairy produce and red meats, which are becoming more and more popular in modern PRoC, are strongly influenced from the west. It is "food affluence". McD and KFC being classic examples - they are regarded as kind of high class eating! :blink:

However, in that Wiki quote, I quite disagree that "Some Chinese Buddhists discourage the consumption of beef, although it is not considered taboo." Chinese Buddhists place a very high value on vegetarianism. Although not all lay buddhists eat meat, all the monastics do, and thus almost all Chinese lay Buddhists consider that being vegetarian is definitely what should be done. It has kind of become de facto as important as the five precepts for maybe half the Chinese buddhist population. So, yes, they basically "forbid the consumption of beef, and any other animal flesh, and also consider it a kind of taboo".

Regards the Thais and Sri Lankans, I wonder if also, despite the fact that they are Buddhist and not Hindu, the sheer force and influence of general Indian culture on the entirety of SE Asia (from Afghanistan all the way down to Indonesia) plays a major factor here? Not to mention the situation as per the Chinese - the ox is the traditional family farm tractor, not a produce animal.
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Re: Beef?

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

Although the vast majority of Burmese are not vegetarians, in general they do not eat beef. The reasons are that cattle are used in agriculture for ploughing, for transporting goods, and for threshing grain. It is regarded as despicable ingratitude to kill and eat your own benefactor.

See Cow Dhamma by the late Venerable Ledi Sayādaw.
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Re: Beef?

Post by Paññāsikhara »

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:Although the vast majority of Burmese are not vegetarians, in general they do not eat beef. The reasons are that cattle are used in agriculture for ploughing, for transporting goods, and for threshing grain. It is regarded as despicable ingratitude to kill and eat your own benefactor.

See Cow Dhamma by the late Venerable Ledi Sayādaw.
Great link, Bhante!, much appreciated. :)
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Re: Poll: Are you vegetarian/vegan?

Post by BubbaBuddhist »

If I have the arrogance to dare call myself a worthy follower of the Buddhadhamma (which these days I hesitate to do) I would say I follow Theravada teachings. I will not eat animals. I don't agonize over the ethics of it or think about why or why not. I just prefer not to do it.

But I do like this:

Image

J
PS: As a former moderator of the Vegetarian Forum of e-sangha, I have a word of advice for the Admins of Dhamma Wheel: Don't give in to temptation to create a vegetarian forum unless you want a foretaste of what Avici Hell is like. :tongue:

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Re: Poll: Are you vegetarian/vegan?

Post by alan »

I went pure Veg in the 80's, when all available science pointed towards it as healthy.
But my experience with exercise later on proved that I needed protein--soy is not good enough--and had to admit I had been wrong.
Exercise is not a topic that thrills the hearts of many, so I'll refrain from that. But there is a lot of science out now suggesting good fats (some from animal protein) are essential for optimum health. I'm convinced now, and yes, after "years of research", have concluded it is best to eat meat (although I advise avoiding processed stuff and garbage from fast food joints), and keep your simple carbs down to a minimum.
More can be found at westonaprice.org.
Worth your time!
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Re: Poll: Are you vegetarian/vegan?

Post by BubbaBuddhist »

Eh? I'm a weightlifter and have been for a long time. Lots of vegetarian and even vegan athletes, including bodybuilders. Of course, this is one of those topics hotly debated. Seems as though some individual thrive and some do not.

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Re: Poll: Are you vegetarian/vegan?

Post by EricJ »

Indeed, I am. Lacto-ovo vegetarian. Lately, I haven't been eating cheeses (because so many of the cheeses you find in les supermarches contain calf-based rennets), and I actually like the taste of soy milk more than cow's milk. I avoid meat to remove myself from the consumer demand that informs the meat industry's acts of environmental damage, animal abuse and social injustice.
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Re: Poll: Are you vegetarian/vegan?

Post by PeterB »

I was a vegetarian for a long time. Now I am not. partly on medical advice. Yesterday for Christmas dinner I enjoyed the roast beef of old England from a herd of organically certified and humanely reared cattle.
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Re: Beef?

Post by Bankei »

Thai people generally love eating beef. Korean BBQ restaurants are very popular now! Pork and Chicken are more common because of the price, but beef is still up there.

I haven't heard of anyone avoiding beef except those kwanyin followers and vegetarians.

I've also had a few beef curries in Myanmar.

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Re: Poll: Are you vegetarian/vegan?

Post by Laurens »

alan wrote:I went pure Veg in the 80's, when all available science pointed towards it as healthy.
But my experience with exercise later on proved that I needed protein--soy is not good enough--and had to admit I had been wrong.
Exercise is not a topic that thrills the hearts of many, so I'll refrain from that. But there is a lot of science out now suggesting good fats (some from animal protein) are essential for optimum health. I'm convinced now, and yes, after "years of research", have concluded it is best to eat meat (although I advise avoiding processed stuff and garbage from fast food joints), and keep your simple carbs down to a minimum.
More can be found at westonaprice.org.
Worth your time!
I do not agree with the arguement that refraining from eating meat is unhealthy, I know of body builders who are vegetarian and atheletes, being vegetarian doesn't mean a complete lack of protein, there are many harmless sources. And even if refraining from meat is unhealthy I would rather sacrifice my optimum health than contribute to an industry that promotes killing and suffering in animals.
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