the great vegetarian debate

[Jojola]

Killing an animal for food is never coincidence, that's just phony logic, either admit that you enjoy contributing to killing animals and eating their meat, or be a vegetarian, your choice.

That's a false dichotomy.

The Buddhas way was a middle one, subtle, hard to understand...

I feel like not only do you not understand why the Buddha had the diet he did, but that you don't understand intention very well and how kamma plays in our life.

When the Buddha ate meat:
The animal wasn't killed for him
The animal wasn't butchered for him
The meat wasn't traded for him
Nor was the meat offered specifically for him. Could've gone to any beggar.

That's why no karma was accrued when he ate meat cause he did so only under those conditions where the fate of that animal had nothing to do with his intentions. If you still have problems with eating meat even after the above conditions are satisfied then you have missed the Buddhas message and strayed off the path by not letting go and developing wisdom and skillfull action, a lot can be understood about his teachings by thoroughly understanding his manner regarding food alone.

The drawback of vegetarianism is the becoming of idealism, which is unskillful.

To argue with this is synonymous with arguing that the Buddha was harmful. How do you reconcile your view with the manner of The Buddha?

[lyndon taylor]

I assume your intention is to support meat eating, that's the intention to eat animals that are killed for you to eat. I hardly think you have a right to moralize my intentions not to eat meat.

[Jojola]

What comes across to me in these discussions is the sense that some people just enjoy eating meat, and so they resent ethical questions about their dietary choices.

I'm sure with some that is the case, but with others we're just curious how a vegetarian can reconcile their view with the manner of the Buddha, who wasn't one.

Was the Buddha harmful then?

[freedom]

I'm sure with some that is the case, but with others we're just curious how a vegetarian can reconcile their view with the manner of the Buddha, who wasn't one.

Was the Buddha harmful then?

If we pick and choose our foods and enjoy them, there is kamma for that because it involves intention.

If we do not pick and choose our foods but seeing the danger and the draw back of the given foods and having the appreciation for the beings that were sacrififed for our survivals instead of enjoy their meats, then we can escape that kamma.

If we can do the latter then meat or non meat is not a concern. However, most of us cannot.

[cjmacie]

Enjoy Thanksgiving y'all. Got any "tofurkey" recipes?

[Spiny Norman]

What comes across to me in these discussions is the sense that some people just enjoy eating meat, and so they resent ethical questions about their dietary choices.

I'm sure with some that is the case, but with others we're just curious how a vegetarian can reconcile their view with the manner of the Buddha, who wasn't one.

Was the Buddha harmful then?

The Buddha taught Right Intention, which includes harmlessness. And there is the 3-fold rule, the purpose of which was to minimise the slaughter of animals for food.

I don't see eating meat as necessarily an issue, for example if it has already been cooked for others, but I think that choosing to buy meat when alternatives are available is somewhat questionable.

[plwk]

Just for the season of Thanksgiving... Vegan Granny Potty Mouth ahead..thou hast been warnest!

[seeker242]

curious how a vegetarian can reconcile their view with the manner of the Buddha, who wasn't one.

It's reconciled by acknowledging that, unlike most people, the Buddha and his followers were alms beggars who didn't choose their food. Choosing the food vs not choosing the food is considered a different situation. And when you bring factory farming into the picture, that really changes it.

[freedom]

...the Buddha and his followers were alms beggars who didn't choose their food. ...

To me, the Buddha and his disciples are not beggars. They do not beg for anything. They go around and collect foods that are respectfully offered by lay people. By doing this, they create opportunities for lay people to make great merits and have a chance to practice generosity. They, instead, are also the givers!

[plwk]

New £5 notes contain animal fat, says Bank of England, drawing anger from vegetarians

[DNS]

New £5 notes contain animal fat, says Bank of England, drawing anger from vegetarians

There is no need for them to get angry. They just need to see this:



One can be a vegetarian and try to reduce the killing and suffering, but one must be realistic and understand that a 0% use of animals and animal by-products is virtually impossible.

[seeker242]

New £5 notes contain animal fat, says Bank of England, drawing anger from vegetarians

There is no need for them to get angry. They just need to see this:

One can be a vegetarian and try to reduce the killing and suffering, but one must be realistic and understand that a 0% use of animals and animal by-products is virtually impossible.

I like this version better.

[chownah]

Hard to be an organic farmer and not use that famous cow by-product manure. It is possible though and I am actually working on developing the system to do this at my small farm.

Since most organic farmers use manure does this mean that vegans should eat chemically fertilized vegetables?
chownah

[DNS]

I like this version better.

I like that one too. That is good.

I didn't notice if marshmallows were on those lists. Almost all marshmallows contain animal gelatin, but I have found some vegan ones at health food stores, Trader Joe's, Whole Foods, etc.

[chownah]

Hard to be an organic farmer and not use that famous cow by-product manure. It is possible though and I am actually working on developing the system to do this at my small farm.

Since most organic farmers use manure does this mean that vegans should eat chemically fertilized vegetables?
chownah

No responses to this so far. Do vegans know that virtually all organic produce is grown using animal manures? Certainly it is possible to grow produce without animal manures but it is a much more difficult thing to accomplish and substantially increases the labor required. I think that unless one grows one's own produce one is unlikely to find produce which is grown without animal manures. I may be wrong on this as I have not contacted any organic growers anywhere but I have been an organic grower myself for many decades and have seen how ubiquitous the use of animal manure is in organic growing. It is true that some (perhaps most) organic field crops can be grown effectively using green manuring....things like grains mostly....but when it comes to growing vegetables where a much richer soil is needed it takes a lot of work to cut a green manure crop and then concentrate it into a smaller area to develop the richness of the soil.
Again, I have not done a survey of organic produce available commercially. It would be interesting if people in the USA who know of any organic growers if they use animal manures or not.

Bottom line for vegans perhaps is should you eat organic if it was grown with animal manure or would it be better for vegans who are not sure to stick with chemically grown produce?
chownah