the great vegetarian debate

[lyndon taylor]

Wouldn't synthetic meat be the solution, unless your against meat eating due to taste?

If synthetic meat is the solution, pray tell what is the problem?
chownah

The problem would obviously be condoning and utilizing the killing of animals for food.

[chownah]

Wouldn't synthetic meat be the solution, unless your against meat eating due to taste?

If synthetic meat is the solution, pray tell what is the problem?
chownah

The problem would obviously be condoning and utilizing the killing of animals for food.

I don't understand how you have given a problem for which synthetic meat is a solution. If someone condones and utilizes the killing of animals for food is a problem I don't really see how synthetic meat will solve this problem as it seems that the person who condones and utilizes the killing of animals for food will just continue to do that. I certainly would and I am sure that alot of other people would too.
chownah

[lyndon taylor]

How would eating laboratory grown meat involve the killing of animals!!

[chownah]

Clw_uk said that synthetic meat was a solution to a problem....but it is not clear what problem he is refering to and I would be interested in knowing what he is refering to.

Lyndon taylor suggested that, " The problem would obviously be condoning and utilizing the killing of animals for food." and I replied that, " If someone condones and utilizes the killing of animals for food is a problem I don't really see how synthetic meat will solve this problem as it seems that the person who condones and utilizes the killing of animals for food will just continue to do that. I certainly would and I am sure that alot of other people would too." I think this clearly shows that lyndon taylor has not given a problem for which synthetic meat is a solution.

I am still hoping that clw_uk will indicate what problem he was thinking of.

The post which stimulated my posting is "Wouldn't synthetic meat be the solution, unless your against meat eating due to taste?"...it was not clear exactly to what this was a response. So....it seems that clw_uk is saying that if one does not like the taste of meat then synthetic meat would not be a solution to this problem so I assume that synthetic meat would solve some problem for someone who likes the taste of meat. Later, clw_uk posted, "Wouldn't that depend on the vegetarian?" which I am tenatively taking to mean that the person with the problem is a vegetarian. So.....putting these two things together it would seem that synthetic meat is being suggested as a solution to a problem of a vegetarian who likes the taste of meat. Having been vegetarian who liked the taste of meat for a number of years and at that time associating with alot of people who were vegetarians who liked the taste of meat I never myself had a problem with eating a vegetarian diet and just forgoing the taste of meat and I never knew anyone who was eating a vegetarian diet who had a probleml with just forgoing the taste of meat. I do remember some aquaintance who did mention that occasionally the smell of some particular meat cooking did somtimes create a desire to eat a bit of meat but they never expressed this as if it was a problem. It seems that for most if not all of my vegetarian acquaintances that a vegetarian diet is so satisfying taste wise that any tangential craving for meat if it occurred at all was not very distrubing because their vegetarian diet was totally satisfying. Everyone of us would have scoffed mightily if anyone had suggested we eat synthetic meat and almost everyone of us scoffed mightily at imitation meat products although tvp can provide interesting textures....we mostly found those textures more enjoyable if we did NOT associate them with meat but just appreciated them as being "just so".

So....what problem is synthetic meat supposed to solve? In my experience this just seems to be a theoretic concern but I'm ready to find out more.
chownah

[lyndon taylor]

It solves the problem of killing animals to eat, it means you can eat meat and not be involved in killing animals, how is that not solving a problem, or do you actually think that killing animals is not a problem?????? I'm pretty darn sure the Buddha would disagree with that attitude and want us to reduce or eliminate the killing of animals for food if possible. I think the only reason the Buddha didn't try to enforce vegetarianism is because he didn't consider it an attainable goal, so he aimed to reduce meat consumption rather than ban it. Cultured meat may one day be a way to eliminate or greatly reduce the killing of animals for food, if that doesn't solve a problem, I don't know what does!!

[chownah]

It solves the problem of killing animals to eat, it means you can eat meat and not be involved in killing animals, how is that not solving a problem, or do you actually think that killing animals is not a problem?????? I'm pretty darn sure the Buddha would disagree with that attitude and want us to reduce or eliminate the killing of animals for food if possible. I think the only reason the Buddha didn't try to enforce vegetarianism is because he didn't consider it an attainable goal, so he aimed to reduce meat consumption rather than ban it. Cultured meat may one day be a way to eliminate or greatly reduce the killing of animals for food, if that doesn't solve a problem, I don't know what does!!

I think that those who see the killing of animals to eat as a problem will just not eat meat....I don't really see how there is a problem there needing a solution. I guess I just don't see a significant number of people who eat meat who are significantly concerned about the fact that someone has to kill an animal for them to eat it....if they are that concerned they usually just stop eating meat I think but I could be wrong. The fact that an animal has to die for me to eat meat is not a problem for me and I really doubt that the availability of synthetic meat would make me want to eat it but I could be wrong.....I don't take synthetic vitamins for instance.

Also, it seems that clw_uk was talking about vegetarians, not meat eaters.....and while your observations in this are interesting I am actually wondering what clw_uk was posting about.
chownah

[lyndon taylor]

Just because a whole bunch of meat eaters don't see killing animals as a problem, doesn't mean that it is not a problem, just like the killing of people in the holocaust was a problem, even if some people didn't see it as that. And not every meat eater feels no guilt about killing animals, many would be quite happy to eat a kill free grown meat instead if they were given the opportunity to buy it at a reasonable price.

[Jim1]

I think that in the Buddhist context killing an animal so that one has something to eat, when it's not actually necessary(ie could get a jar of peanut butter from the dollar store) would be considered in opposition to the concept of Ahimsa.

a·him·sa the principle of nonviolence toward all living things.


I realize that not all Buddhists are going to agree with this interpretation. But this is how I, personally, view it.

[Ceisiwr]

Later, clw_uk posted, "Wouldn't that depend on the vegetarian?" which I am tenatively taking to mean that the person with the problem is a vegetarian. So.....putting these two things together it would seem that synthetic meat is being suggested as a solution to a problem of a vegetarian who likes the taste of meat.

That's what I was getting at. It would also mean less animals being killed to feed those who aren't vegetarian, that is to say those people who don't see the killing of animals as an issue.

[chownah]

Later, clw_uk posted, "Wouldn't that depend on the vegetarian?" which I am tenatively taking to mean that the person with the problem is a vegetarian. So.....putting these two things together it would seem that synthetic meat is being suggested as a solution to a problem of a vegetarian who likes the taste of meat.

That's what I was getting at. It would also mean less animals being killed to feed those who aren't vegetarian, that is to say those people who don't see the killing of animals as an issue.

In the case of a vegetarian who likes the taste of meat I think that the real problem is one of craving for taste....and making synthetic meat is actually helping them to indulge in their craving so if viewed this way it is not solving the real problem which is the craving for taste but enabling them to ignore the real problem.

In the case of the person who doesn't see the killing of animals as an issue I think that the problem here resides with those who want to change the diet of that person....so you are correct in that his is an issue for those who see killing of animals for food as an issue and these are almost exclusively vegetarian I think.
chownah

[seeker242]

In the case of the person who doesn't see the killing of animals as an issue I think that the problem here resides with those who want to change the diet of that person....so you are correct in that his is an issue for those who see killing of animals for food as an issue and these are almost exclusively vegetarian I think.
chownah

I don't think that is the case personally. The negative environmental effects of modern day meat production, alone, make it a problem for everyone. Here's one example.

"Leading water scientists have issued one of the sternest warnings yet about global food supplies, saying that the world's population may have to switch almost completely to a vegetarian diet over the next 40 years to avoid catastrophic shortages." http://www.theguardian.com/global-devel ... etarianism" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The people trying to develop synthetic meat are doing it for environmental reasons, not really anything to do with vegetarians themselves. Scientists who studied it found that in vitro meat was "potentially ... much more efficient and environmentally-friendly", generating only 4% greenhouse gas emissions, reducing the energy needs of meat generation by up to 45%, and requiring only 2% of the land that the global meat/livestock industry does"

Greenhouse gas emissions, unsustainable energy use, unsustainable water use, unsustainable land use are everyone's problem IMO.

[Sam Vara]

Just seen this article in the Guardian:
http://www.theguardian.com/environment/ ... e#comments

As is usual for the Guardian, the ethical arguments are about ecology only.

[samseva]

I would like to add that vegetarians should very much consider eggs (preferably free-range), since it is not actually consuming meat. Whether or not someone picks it up or not, the chicken will lay an egg almost every day.

[Ron-The-Elder]

Picking up eggs is a violation of the precept: "Take not that, which has not been freely given."....and then when you eat it , you harm the species by preventing them from reproducing, which is a violation of "Cause no harm to living beings."

[cooran]

Most eggs are not fertilised, so they will not hatch into anything, if not eaten, they will simply rot.

With metta,
Chris