the great vegetarian debate

[chownah]

The notion that farmers would have to kill their animals raised for food in a vegetarian world

I guess you are talking about some theoretic world while I am talking about the world we live in today.
If someone stops eating bird then someone else buys the bird to eat.
If so many people stop eating bird that the farmer has a difficult time selling all his/her birds then the price of birds will go down until the birds are sold.
If the market gets so bad that there is no profit to be made by delivering the birds to market then the farmer will have to decide what to do with the birds. Generally speaking a farmer will not invest time and money in unprofitable birds. The cheapest thing is to probably kill the birds....or let them starve to death.
In practice, markets being what they are, birds can be sold at reduced prices so in practice it fully grown birds don't get killed.....baby birds however do get killed. If you want to raise birds you start with hatchlings and if you need 1000 birds to raise you will start with 1100 hatchlings or so to account for deaths....if none of your hatchlings die then you kill the surplus.....sometimes this happens by culling....sometimes by just reducing the number of flock members.

This is the world we live in....it is not consistent with the imaginary vegetarian world you speak of. Someone who forgoes eating 100 birds does not save 100 bird lives....at most it just makes birds cheaper for someone else to eat.

Eventually he also orders a smaller number of cornish hen from the slaughterhouse. Eventually, not immediately, there will be 365 less animals killed per year. Not enough to make a difference in the overall economy, but as the saying goes, it makes a difference to those specific animals.

So eventually, way off in the future, there will be 365 less animals not born because the market will be smaller........is it those 365 unborn animals that it will make a difference to?....it will make a difference to an animal that does not exist?
chownah

[seeker242]

So eventually, way off in the future, there will be 365 less animals not born because the market will be smaller........is it those 365 unborn animals that it will make a difference to?....it will make a difference to an animal that does not exist?
chownah

Are you saying that it just doesn't matter if we breed animals, abuse them and kill them vs not breeding them to begin with? Raising and killing an additional 300 million animals vs not doing that. Are you saying there is no difference between those two scenarios? If so, well that just doesn't make any sense. There is clearly a difference. The latter is clearly the more ethical choice. Without even beginning to speak of the health implications of a meat centric diet and the damaging environmental effects of modern day animal agriculture. Entire books have been written on each of those subjects. The effects of a smaller market go far beyond just "365 less animals not born". But even if it didn't, raising and killing an additional 300 million animals vs not doing that, the latter would still clearly be the more ethical choice.

[chownah]

seeker242,
I am saying just what I said. I think that if you read carefully what I said and pay attention to just what I am saying you will be able to figure out what I am saying because I am just saying it as it is right there before your very eyes. Really, I do think if you read it and concentrate on just what it says you will be able to make good sense of it and understand just what I am saying.

As far as the things you imagine that I might have said....no, I am not saying those things at all and it really astonishes me that you think that I am saying those things when it is really clear just exactly what I am saying in my posts. If, however, you do not understand what I am saying in my posts then please point out what part of my post you do not understand and I will explain it to you but really I don't think that the language I used or the concepts I discuss are so difficult.....but maybe for some people they are....I don't know.

You do bring up an interesting point concerning (your phrase), "the damaging environmental effects of modern day animal agriculture". This is pretty good but you can just take out the word animal and you would get "the damaging environmental effects of modern day agriculture"....and this is something which I have made central in my life....I am an organic farmer and most of my life activity revolves around developing and promoting farming practices which do not damage the environment. If you really care about suffering in the world then you will stop buying food that is grown by modern day industrial agriculture. You are destroying more life by eating their death zone grown produce than the meat animals that non-vegetarians consume.....really you do....stop it....stop it now.....stop killing those sentient beings by purchasing that non-organic food!!
chownah

[Joshua]

Vegetarianism is by definition neither healthy or unhealthy. It simply means not eating meat and seafood. So if my diet is 100% candy bars and ice cream it would certainly by vegetarian but at the same time very unhealthy. Conversely, if my diet is wholesome and nutritionally balanced and just happened to contain no meat or seafood it would be vegetarian and healthy, and I would have no need to supplement. It is all about individual choices and context.

[lotus flower]

Hi. there are some buddhists who eat meat almost every days. they buy it or eat in restaurants.
there are buddhists who don't eat any meat.
So....? here is a rule about don't kill. when we buy meat or eat meat in restaurant didn't we caused killing? there are a many different ideas about it.

[Nicolas]

There is a huge topic dedicated to this: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?t=9229" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

From the suttas:

I say that on three instances meat should not be partaken, when seen, heard or when there is a doubt. I say, that on these three instances meat should not be partaken. I say, that meat could be partaken on three instances, when not seen, not heard and when there is no doubt about it.

In other words, from the Theravada perspective, if you do not see the slaughter, do not hear the slaughter, and when you know that the slaughter was not done specifically for you, then you may eat the meat.

[lotus flower]

Thanks a lot for this sutta

[SarathW]

I consume meat but now I feel that they are tasteless.
See below for easy to make grain salad. I used Cuscus instead of grains.
Nowdays I try to skip my evening meal.
Hopefully that may help a little bit for me and every one else.


http://akitchencat.com.au/cypriot-grain-salad/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Aloka]

I consume meat but now I feel that they are tasteless.
See below for easy to make grain salad. I used Cuscus instead of grains.
Nowdays I try to skip my evening meal.
Hopefully that may help a little bit for me and every one else.


http://akitchencat.com.au/cypriot-grain-salad/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There are lots of interesting and nutritious vegetarian and vegan recipes available on the internet which are suitable for busy lay Buddhists who eat alone, or at normal mealtimes with their families.

[Ron-The-Elder]

I broke (violated) my medical devotion to veganism last night, while watching a very violent sport, American Football. Mostly because of the game violence, and because I had a $7.50 bet with my first cousin in Baltimore, who liked The Seahawks, that The New England Patriots would win in NFL Superbowl XLIX. Another contributing factor was that my semi-retired main woman, wife of nine years, was working a long shift at the local State Mental Hospital.

For all these reasons above I decided to make peppers and onions fried lightly in olive oil, with broiled sweet Italian sausages on hard rolls topped with a four cheese blend melted on top. I hadn't eaten anything like that for years and was very tempted, but for a serious threat to my pancreas to add Vietnamese Chillipepper sauce to the mix. Let me confess: "It was delicious. It tasted like a Superbowl Tradition with the only thing missing: "Caissons of Budweiser Clidesdales led by a yellow lab puppy!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xAsjRRMMg_Q" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Does this sound like a good reason to quit watching The Superbowl games, placing bets, and allowing my wife to work long hours in her semi-retirement?

[Mkoll]

Looks like you won your bet, Ron. The cheaters...oops sorry, Patriots, won.

[lyndon taylor]

Does the Patriots "cheating" justify "cheating" on your vegetarian diet??

[DNS]

Recently made video, Animals and the Buddha:

phpBB .

[Ron-The-Elder]

Dave,

Thanks for the very wise and most appropriate answer. I have never seen this video, but am familiar with the topic.

Ron

[Jim1]

At this point, all I've done is to start buying "free range" chicken so that the chickens are at least allowed to have a fairly normal chicken life instead of being packed into those awful chicken warehouses with their beaks cut off. Plus I figure it must be healthier to eat chickens that weren't shot up with steroids. And I've never touched veal because of how the calves are treated. But basically that's the only change I've made since becoming a Buddhist -- try to be conscious to support meat industries that don't mistreat the animals while they're alive and to reduce my meat consumption somewhat.

I don't know if that is enough.

Hey that's better than most people. I mean, depending on how one defines "better." In my book it is anyway.

As for me, I'm a vegan(most of the time). When at a restaurant or someone's house you can't always control what's in everything, so I just eat it.. as long as it's not actual meat. I don't eat meat ever(or fish or chicken).. anything that had to be killed(murdered). Sorry, I'm not trying to impose my own views on anyone else here I promise.. this is just what makes sense to me.