Why would people do that ?

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Re: Why would people do that ?

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Jun 07, 2011 6:06 pm

Moderator's note: My closing this thread has been severely criticized by a member. He states in a PM:

Tiltbillings takes the final shot and then closes the thread......this is a tool used in making propaganda......this is not the kind of information management used in a free and open exchange of ideas....do you understand this?


My closing the thread when I did, as I did, was not to have a final comment at the expense of anyone, and as I pointed out that if anyone felt a further comment was needed that certainly could have been easily arranged. Given the fair amount of heat that this closing generated behind the scenes and that my comments in the second msg above this has also generated some heat, this thread will be opened once more to see where it goes.

One thing that needs to be understood is that the persona non grata status of element came about as a result of a careful due process in response to what the management here saw as violations of the TOS. Retro is strongly insistent that we afford everyone (except commercial spammers) a due process, which starts often with a general warning in the thread, moving to PM warnings to the specific individual. If the individual is persistent in his violations after PM warnings, then a suspension follows, and if there are continued violations, a longer suspension follows, and after that permanent banning.

We make a serious effort not to be arbitrary or vindictive, and we try to be even-handed, even when the person in question is making themselves difficult. Element was banned following this process for hostile public comments, for hostile PM comments and for totally disregarding forums rules in the classical section. Much of the offending material that got element banned has been removed from sight, as would any hostile msg and any msg egregiously in violation of a subforum rules. Quite frankly, this would not be an issue for public discussion, except that element's frequent and florid incursions onto the forum as well as frequent hostile PMs to other members using his latest sign-on name has made it a public issue to a fair degree..

All of this is a time suck for the staff, and getting frequently "punked" threads can make for an untrustworthy atmosphere for the forum members. Early on in this thread I referred to element as a "jerk," and as much I have had a finger shaken at me for being so naughty, I am not going to take it back. It is a legitimate expression of the frustration and annoyance caused by this totally unnecessary repetitive, deceptive, and time wasting behavior.

Because of the frequency of element's incursions and because of the nature of them, we have long ago made it known that we will identify element when he has become known to us. Now, a couple more things, I do not feel that we really need to justify to anyone that we appropriately banned element and that he is persona non grata here as a result of his past and his ongoing behavior here.

My purpose for the above is not to cover my butt (or our collective management butts) with a self-serving justification; rather, it is to give the membership here some idea of how we run this forum in terms of problem members. Retro, in particular, is insistent that we do not make the mistakes that plagued E-Sangha.

tilt, while his butt may not be covered, he will not moon you.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Why would people do that ?

Postby PeterB » Tue Jun 07, 2011 6:40 pm

As the originator of this thread I am more than happy to see it closed.
It was never intended as a rallying point for people with chips on their shoulders, who have never come to terms with their feelings about mom and pop and who project those feelings on to the mods.. It was rather to marvel at the activities of those with seemingly too much time on their hands.
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Re: Why would people do that ?

Postby Ben » Tue Jun 07, 2011 10:49 pm

Thank you Tilt, thank you Peter.

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Re: Why would people do that ?

Postby alan » Wed Jun 08, 2011 5:00 am

Ok then if this thread is alive let's give it a purpose. Here is a question:
Why is it that some people feel no shame?
That seems to get to the heart of it.
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Re: Why would people do that ?

Postby Aloka » Wed Jun 08, 2011 7:21 am

alan wrote:Ok then if this thread is alive let's give it a purpose. Here is a question:
Why is it that some people feel no shame?

That seems to get to the heart of it.


Isn't looking outwards to speculate about why others on the internet do/don't feel shame rather pointless ?

How can one know if people one has never seen or spoken to actually feel any shame or not ? (Unless one has psychic powers )


Just my humble thoughts, of course ! :)
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Re: Why would people do that ?

Postby chownah » Wed Jun 08, 2011 3:13 pm

I thought this especially the first part) would be appropriate for this thread....I think it is meant to apply to discussion of people of a general character as well as specific individuals.

from: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/stream.html
Stream Entry
Part 1: The Way to Stream-entry
by
Thanissaro Bhikkhu
© 2006–2011


"A person endowed with these four qualities can be known as 'a person of integrity.' Which four?

"There is the case where a person of integrity, when asked, doesn't reveal another person's bad points, to say nothing of when unasked. Furthermore, when asked, when pressed with questions, he is one who speaks of another person's bad points not in full, not in detail, with omissions, holding back...

"Then again, a person of integrity, when unasked, reveals another person's good points, to say nothing of when asked. Furthermore, when asked, when pressed with questions, he is one who speaks of another person's good points in full & in detail, without omissions, without holding back...

"Then again, a person of integrity, when unasked, reveals his own bad points, to say nothing of when asked. Furthermore, when asked, when pressed with questions, he is one who speaks of his own bad points in full & in detail, without omissions, without holding back...

"Then again, a person of integrity, when asked, doesn't reveal his own good points, to say nothing of when unasked. Furthermore, when asked, when pressed with questions, he is one who speaks of his own good points not in full, not in detail, with omissions, holding back...

"Monks, a person endowed with these four qualities can be known as 'a person of integrity.'"

— AN 4.73
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Re: Why would people do that ?

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jun 08, 2011 3:55 pm

chownah wrote:I thought this especially the first part) would be appropriate for this thread....I think it is meant to apply to discussion of people of a general character as well as specific individuals. . . .
It does not seem to apply at all. Element, by his own actions has set up a situation here that required some response by the management. Had he not done that, there would not have been a public discussion of his behavior. It would have been handled quietly behind the scenes as it should be.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Why would people do that ?

Postby chownah » Thu Jun 09, 2011 2:47 am

I would like to point out to everyone that even though the text I quoted comes from a web page which discusses stream entry the text itself comes from:
AN 4.73
Sappurisa Sutta: A Person of Integrity
translated from the Pali by
Thanissaro Bhikkhu
© 1998–2011
and can be found here: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

If people go and read this Sutta they will see that it is not specific to stream entry and is apparently meant to apply to people in general.....it also contains a similar description of a person of no integrety; a subject which is also described here:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

AN 2.31-32 PTS: A i 61 II,iv,1-2
Kataññu Suttas: Gratitude
translated from the Pali by
Thanissaro Bhikkhu
© 2002–2011

"Monks, I will teach you the level of a person of no integrity and the level of a person of integrity. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak."

"As you say, lord," the monks responded.

The Blessed One said, "Now what is the level of a person of no integrity? A person of no integrity is ungrateful & unthankful. This ingratitude, this lack of thankfulness, is advocated by rude people. It is entirely on the level of people of no integrity. A person of integrity is grateful & thankful. This gratitude, this thankfulness, is advocated by civil people. It is entirely on the level of people of integrity."

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Re: Why would people do that ?

Postby alan » Thu Jun 09, 2011 3:12 am

Hi Aloka
I'd refer you to the title of this thread. It was closed until someone insisted that it be opened again. I haven't seen any new insights from that poster--but he did say that "a free and honest exchange of ideas" had been hindered.
So I offered an idea. I don't pretend to know what people are thinking, but in egregious cases like this, and where there is a specific question at the heart of the matter, I don't think it is pointless to speculate on motivation. Actually, I think it is useful. Lack of shame explains a lot of aberrant behavior.
Don't mean to get too heavy on you, but I still think this is a legitimate question.
Why is it that some people feel no shame?
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Re: Why would people do that ?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Jun 09, 2011 3:26 am

chownah wrote:The Blessed One said, "Now what is the level of a person of no integrity? A person of no integrity is ungrateful & unthankful. This ingratitude, this lack of thankfulness, is advocated by rude people. It is entirely on the level of people of no integrity. A person of integrity is grateful & thankful. This gratitude, this thankfulness, is advocated by civil people. It is entirely on the level of people of integrity."
This forum is offered as a gift to the Dhamma followers as a place of discussion of the Dhamma. There is a marked ingratitude and a clear lack of thankfulness in signing-on repeatedly to a forum such as this with the intent of being disruptive and deceptive, having no intention of adhering to the Terms of Service that one explicitly says one will follow when when initially signs-on.

So, Chownah, what is your point here?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Why would people do that ?

Postby alan » Thu Jun 09, 2011 3:35 am

"Shame" has bad connotations to those reared in Christianity, and can seem like an impolite assumption. I get that. But remember Buddha's teachings to his son in that famous sutta passage I'm sure you have all read. Wasn't he instilling shame?
A person who would willfully tell a lie could also do anything, the Buddha tells us. In this thread we have been discussing the behavior of someone who has repeatedly lied and misrepresented himself. If you want to be totally politically correct you might say he has a heedfulness problem. Or totally graceless. Or perhaps you could just state the obvious, which is that Element has no sense of shame.

Why is it that some people feel no sense of shame?
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Re: Why would people do that ?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Jun 09, 2011 3:42 am

alan wrote:
Why is it that some people feel no sense of shame?
Interesting question, but in any particular case there probably is no way of really knowing. Even if we were to ask the person in question, they may say, in all honesty, that they are acting because of this or that, but it could very well be they really are unaware of what it is that is behind such behavior. As hard as it can be sometimes, it is always a matter of choice, even if we do not really know everything behind the choice.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Why would people do that ?

Postby alan » Thu Jun 09, 2011 4:15 am

If you were to ask the particular person, they would of course obfuscate to hide their lack of awareness.
But that is not the question.
Is this really a matter of choice? Some options are not on the table for people of character. "Should I choose to lie about my status and post in a deceptive way? Should I choose to deceive and take advantage of good people?. These ideas just don't spring up into the mind. These are simply not options for most of us.
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Re: Why would people do that ?

Postby ground » Thu Jun 09, 2011 4:50 am

Why would one think about and try to analyse the motivations of others?

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Re: Why would people do that ?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Jun 09, 2011 5:04 am

TMingyur wrote:Why would one think about and try to analyse the motivations of others?

Kind regards
I can only shrug my shoulders. Maybe it helps explain why something, otherwise inexplicable, is done.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Why would people do that ?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Jun 09, 2011 5:07 am

alan wrote:If you were to ask the particular person, they would of course obfuscate to hide their lack of awareness.
But that is not the question.
Is this really a matter of choice? Some options are not on the table for people of character. "Should I choose to lie about my status and post in a deceptive way? Should I choose to deceive and take advantage of good people?. These ideas just don't spring up into the mind. These are simply not options for most of us.
When dealing with human behavior, it is puzzling. Look at the case of Anthony Weiner. All one can do when asked why is to say: "Damdifino."
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Why would people do that ?

Postby ground » Thu Jun 09, 2011 5:21 am

tiltbillings wrote:
TMingyur wrote:Why would one think about and try to analyse the motivations of others?

Kind regards
I can only shrug my shoulders. Maybe it helps explain why something, otherwise inexplicable, is done.


I don't think that there can be an explanation that does justice to the case considered ... if an explanation arises then it may be either utterly wrong and mere projection (of one's own tendencies -> one can only conclude what oneself knows directly) or utterly simplistic (neglecting too much) and projection. So it actually may be sort of self-analysis.
On the other hand explanation of course may serve well to justify (for oneself) one's prejudices and biased views.

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Re: Why would people do that ?

Postby alan » Thu Jun 09, 2011 5:31 am

I'm with you on the Weiner thing, tilt. I loved his passion on MSNBC (a cable network which passes for liberal in America). Difficult to get to his motives.
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Re: Why would people do that ?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Jun 09, 2011 5:34 am

TMingyur wrote:I don't think that there can be an explanation that does justice to the case considered
Sure, but it human nature to at the very least wonder why a behavior done, and it may not necessary be a bad thing.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Why would people do that ?

Postby alan » Thu Jun 09, 2011 5:44 am

Which is why I asked a question in a thread about the question.
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