Why would people do that ?

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Re: Why would people do that ?

Postby Aloka » Sat Jun 04, 2011 12:02 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
Aloka wrote:As for Element -yes I regard him as a friend - but I certainly don't monitor his movements on the internet, not do I have any control over what he does.
Only element/nick is responsible for his actions, but since you are his friend -- so you say --, why don't you ask why he is so persistent in making an unpleasant pest of himself. That would speak directly to the OP and maybe we can be understand this annoying behavior.


You should ask him yourself in a kind rather than hostile way and perhaps you might find out.

Please don't keep laying this whole thing at my feet Tilt, it really isn't fair. I live on the other side of the world to Element.

If I had the answers I'd tell you.

:anjali:
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Re: Why would people do that ?

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Jun 04, 2011 7:38 pm

Aloka wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Aloka wrote:As for Element -yes I regard him as a friend - but I certainly don't monitor his movements on the internet, not do I have any control over what he does.
Only element/nick is responsible for his actions, but since you are his friend -- so you say --, why don't you ask why he is so persistent in making an unpleasant pest of himself. That would speak directly to the OP and maybe we can be understand this annoying behavior.


You should ask him yourself in a kind rather than hostile way and perhaps you might find out.

Please don't keep laying this whole thing at my feet Tilt, it really isn't fair. I live on the other side of the world to Element.

If I had the answers I'd tell you.
I am not laying anything at your feet. I responding to the fact that you are essentisally defending your self described friend for his repeated disruptive behavior on this forum.

As you suggest, I'll ask him kindly why he is doing this:

Element/Nick, is there something we did in our finally banning you after due process for your repeated violations of the TOS that upset you such that you feel it is necessary for you to attack this forum with your repeated incursions and decptions?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Why would people do that ?

Postby Aloka » Sat Jun 04, 2011 7:45 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
I am not laying anything at your feet. I responding to the fact that you are essentisally defending your self described friend for his repeated disruptive behavior on this forum.



Where have I done that ? I have tried to point out that there might be kinder ways of doing things, that's all.

I also would prefer not to be involved with this any longer, thanks.
Last edited by Aloka on Sat Jun 04, 2011 8:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why would people do that ?

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Jun 04, 2011 7:59 pm

Aloka wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
I am not laying anything at your feet. I responding to the fact that you are essentially defending your self described friend for his repeated disruptive behavior on this forum.



Where have I done that ? I have tried to point out that there are kinder ways of doing things, that's all.
Let me ask you directly.

Do you approve of his behavior here?

We banned him after his repeated violations of the TOS, after giving him repeated warnings, after suspending his account several times. The behavior did not change, so we banned him. After all this we should let him back in? If so why?

He has shown no kindness towards the forum management and he has shown no kindness towards the members here with his deceptions and hostile PMs. Why should we let him back? Also, we should not identify the behavior as we see it?

Why don't you condemn this behavior of his?

Basically, we would simply like his attacks on this forum to stop. So, we should say: "Please, Nick, do not attack us any more"?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Why would people do that ?

Postby BubbaBuddhist » Sun Jun 05, 2011 12:45 am

Peter:

Lack of empathy (Hard to feel empathy on the Internet; you can't SEE the effects of your words on what are essentially just more words on your computer screen).

Lack of accountability (People have said things to me on the Internet which would have earned them a punch to the head if they had said it to my face :lol: and I suspect they knew it).

Lack of identity. Sociopaths can go where others fear to tread. Or something like that. In other words if you let everybody in on a forum, you're going to get everybody, including sociopaths and troublemakers. Ban, them, they'll come back under another alias.

Lack of impulse control. (Think twice before typing once was something someone told me once upon a time).

There are other reasons of course, but basically people are ornery and if you put a bunch together they'll behave badly. At least this is what history teaches us.

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Re: Why would people do that ?

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Jun 05, 2011 2:05 am

Metta-4 wrote:There are other reasons of course, but basically people are ornery and if you put a bunch together they'll behave badly. At least this is what history teaches us.
Some will behave badly, but fortunately not all.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Why would people do that ?

Postby chownah » Sun Jun 05, 2011 3:10 am

Element,
Nick,
whoever,
I'd like to hear your side of this. Next time you have an active account here please send me a short private message informing me of your view of what's going on. I won't tell the moderators about our conversation.....
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Re: Why would people do that ?

Postby retrofuturist » Sun Jun 05, 2011 3:39 am

Greetings Chownah,

chownah wrote:Element,
Nick,
whoever,
I'd like to hear your side of this. Next time you have an active account here please send me a short private message informing me of your view of what's going on. I won't tell the moderators about our conversation.....
chownah

Or better still, how about go where he has a valid active account either at Buddhism Without Boundaries or at New Buddhist (where he is dhamma dhatu) and ask him there.

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


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Re: Why would people do that ?

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Jun 05, 2011 4:00 am

chownah wrote:Element,
Nick,
whoever,
I'd like to hear your side of this. Next time you have an active account here please send me a short private message informing me of your view of what's going on. I won't tell the moderators about our conversation.....
chownah
Why invite him to violate the rules further? Retro has given you good advice where you can contact him and to compare notes and complain about Dhamma Wheel to your hearts delight. Also, you can post your complaints at the anti-Dhamma Wheel blog.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Why would people do that ?

Postby Ben » Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:48 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Chownah,

chownah wrote:Element,
Nick,
whoever,
I'd like to hear your side of this. Next time you have an active account here please send me a short private message informing me of your view of what's going on. I won't tell the moderators about our conversation.....
chownah

Or better still, how about go where he has a valid active account either at Buddhism Without Boundaries or at New Buddhist (where he is dhamma dhatu) and ask him there.

Metta,
Retro. :)


And do send him our kind regards!
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Re: Why would people do that ?

Postby chownah » Sun Jun 05, 2011 8:31 am

tiltbillings wrote:
chownah wrote:Element,
Nick,
whoever,
I'd like to hear your side of this. Next time you have an active account here please send me a short private message informing me of your view of what's going on. I won't tell the moderators about our conversation.....
chownah
Why invite him to violate the rules further? Retro has given you good advice where you can contact him and to compare notes and complain about Dhamma Wheel to your hearts delight. Also, you can post your complaints at the anti-Dhamma Wheel blog.

I have not invite him to violate the rules. I have no notes. If I have complaints about dhammawheel or its moderators I do it right here in PM's....you should already be very aware of that since you have seen many if not all of my complaints.....

Perhaps I'll check out the anti-Dhamma Wheel blog at your suggestion....can you provide a link?
Thanks for the suggestion,
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Re: Why would people do that ?

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Jun 05, 2011 8:36 am

chownah wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
chownah wrote:Element,
Nick,
whoever,
I'd like to hear your side of this. Next time you have an active account here please send me a short private message informing me of your view of what's going on. I won't tell the moderators about our conversation.....
chownah
Why invite him to violate the rules further? Retro has given you good advice where you can contact him and to compare notes and complain about Dhamma Wheel to your hearts delight. Also, you can post your complaints at the anti-Dhamma Wheel blog.

I have not invite him to violate the rules. I have no notes. If I have complaints about dhammawheel or its moderators I do it right here in PM's....you should already be very aware of that since you have seen many if not all of my complaints.....
As Retro said, if you want to talk with element, please do so elsewhere. Here, with good reason, he is persona non grata.

Perhaps I'll check out the anti-Dhamma Wheel blog at your suggestion....can you provide a link?
No. That is what Google is for.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Why would people do that ?

Postby cooran » Sun Jun 05, 2011 8:40 am

Hey guys,

Can we all take a deep breath? Aloka and chownah are valued members, and even if they don't really know all that the Mods have been through, that's O.K.
Mods always get criticised - that's part of Mod-Suffering. Sometimes members are offended - that'sO.K. - that's part of Member-Suffering. Let go of ego - and don't take things personally - in the end there is no you, no me, .... we are each just a flux of becoming, which hopefully we can work on and bring to Stilling.

with mahametta to all,
Chris
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Re: Why would people do that ?

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Jun 05, 2011 8:43 am

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Why would people do that ?

Postby chownah » Sun Jun 05, 2011 2:14 pm

I went and looked at the site.....did not see any bashing...not any...none...zip....makes me wonder why anyone who would describe it that way....but maybe my judgement is premature. If someone could go there and find some bashing and show it to me I would be very glad to see it.

Over there some text is produced with the claim that it is a deleted post....it has to do with a discussion of christianity which allegedlly occcurred here.....I read the alleged post and could see no real reason for it being deleted. I did see that retrofuturist posted over there (in another place...not in the thread I'm discussing)...maybe he could inform me as to the authenticity of the alleged post that was deleted and why it was deleted if it was....and also if he has seen any bashing over there.

The alleged post had some alleged links to other alleged discussion allegedly here on Dhammawheel. When I clicked on these links it seemed as if it came to Dhammawheel (here) and that the discussion had been deleted......both of them......is Dhammawheel trying to hide something? I know that this is all just circumstantial and am not making accusations...I'm just would like to know...I'm very curious because what has been described in such harsh and pejoritive terms has it seems turned out to be so benign....even friendly and in the spirit of helpfulness....although my first impressions can often be wrong.

I'm not condoning anything that is against the TOS and if I have posted anything here that is against the TOS or any other rule or law then it is unintentional and I beg your forgiveness.
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Re: Why would people do that ?

Postby Modus.Ponens » Sun Jun 05, 2011 4:28 pm

In this time of remembering confrontations with the mods and admins, brought through various threads, I just want to show my support for their work.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"
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Re: Why would people do that ?

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:03 pm

Modus.Ponens wrote:In this time of remembering confrontations with the mods and admins, brought through various threads, I just want to show my support for their work.
Thank you.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Why would people do that ?

Postby Virgo » Sun Jun 05, 2011 6:35 pm

Aloka wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Aloka wrote:As for Element -yes I regard him as a friend - but I certainly don't monitor his movements on the internet, not do I have any control over what he does.
Only element/nick is responsible for his actions, but since you are his friend -- so you say --, why don't you ask why he is so persistent in making an unpleasant pest of himself. That would speak directly to the OP and maybe we can be understand this annoying behavior.


You should ask him yourself in a kind rather than hostile way and perhaps you might find out.

Please don't keep laying this whole thing at my feet Tilt, it really isn't fair. I live on the other side of the world to Element.

If I had the answers I'd tell you.

:anjali:

Have you asked the moderation team if they have spoken to element about this already before assuming they are simply dismissive? Have you asked them if they have had repeated correspondences via the private message system with the individual? Have you asked if he repeatedly broke the TOS? Or, do you just assume he is being victimized, and assume it is uncompassionate to dismiss his unwelcomed provocations? I just ask this to guage whether or not you have the grounds to make the statements you have, based on your assumptions.

Did your mother every yell at you when you were a child at times when you did something wrong? Did she ever yell if you tried to cross the street without looking both ways, or if you repeatedly did something bad? Was she an uncompassionate monster, a beast, for doing such a thing? If you were to see a mother reprimand her child for crossing the street without looking, would you tell her she is not being kind? Do you know the whole situation?

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Re: Why would people do that ?

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Jun 05, 2011 9:07 pm

chownah wrote:I went and looked at the site.....did not see any bashing...not any...none...zip....makes me wonder why anyone who would describe it that way....but maybe my judgement is premature. If someone could go there and find some bashing and show it to me I would be very glad to see it.
At the time of the thread I gave you was started, the blog in question was extremely different in content. As a result of very sharp criticisms here and that were posted on the blog, the blog's author re-did the content, taking out the harsh, and in my opinion, highly unfair criticism of Dhamma Wheel. As for the blog's present content, it is improved, but not without serious problems and despite his unconvincing protestations to the contray, it still remains an anti Dhamma Wheel effort, but beyond that I am not going to comment, given that life is too short and there are far more important things to do. A couple of the original criticisms survived the expungement: jhana4's and Ven Pesala's, both of which are posted very early on in the blog. Ven Pesala's reflects the original and I'll repost it below.

chownah wrote:The alleged post had some alleged links to other alleged discussion allegedly here on Dhammawheel. When I clicked on these links it seemed as if it came to Dhammawheel (here) and that the discussion had been deleted......both of them......is Dhammawheel trying to hide something?
None of the threads the blog's author is referring to have been removed from Dhamma Wheel, nor has any of content of the threads been altered. They are in the forum's public data base, always have been.

Bhikkhu Pesala says:
February 27, 2011 at 4:56 am
jechbi wrote:Like my Dhamma brothers and sisters at Dhamma Wheel, I retain the right to edit this blog as I believe is appropriate. I will remove comments that seem to reflect ill will, or that seem to be unfair or overly personal. I will remove comments at my discretion.
Fair enough, but then you cannot complain about your posts being removed from Dhamma Wheel if the moderators there think they reflect ill-will, seem to be unfair, or overly personal. They too should be able to remove comments at their discretion.

Inevitably, moderators on any forum, will see things through their own eyes. The mods at E-Sangha regularly used to censor my posts, and finally banned me from the site for refusing to use a photograph of myself as my forum avatar (I preferred to use an image of a Burmese Buddharūpa, because it was not drawing attention to myself personally as a photo would have done). My photo was available in my profile, as was my web site address with information about my ordination, etc.

Of course, this entire blog serve no purpose other than being just divisive speech so is hardly a “healthy discussion.” If you don’t like the way that Dhamma Wheel is run, and couldn’t get any satisfaction through private dialogue with the mods, then look for another forum or start your own.


Actually, in looking through this blog, I will comment a bit further. Here the blog author posts a message of his that was removed (not by me).

http://dhammawheel.wordpress.com/2010/11/01/14/

The blog’s author’s msg removed from Dhamma Wheel:

If you’re interested, keep reading to see the deleted comment …


——————————————————————————————-
“But let us not also forget the Buddha was quite willing
to be critical of those religious ideas that he saw a problem …”
–Tiltbillings
“That does not mean one cannot or should not respond to certain claims made by other religions.
The Buddha certainly did respond so.”
–Tiltbillings


Response:

You are not the Buddha.

I do not understand the preoccupation some self-professed Buddhists here have with the god concept, a concept that is irrelevant to Buddhist practice. I don’t understand the recurring preoccupation with god-bashing and Christianity-bashing that repeatedly is on display here at Dhamma Wheel, such as in this thread, and this thread, and the thread about Christianity that was made invisible because of objectionable posts, and numerous other threads on this board. In this discussion and in others here on the subject of god and other religions, measured exchanges of viewpoints frequently are not possible. God-bashing is presented as the legitimate form of Dhamma instruction with regard to theistic religions. Those who try to introduce a different perspective find their very motivations subtly called into doubt with personalized comments such as, “Sorry if that notion offends you.”

This is a very serious flaw on this discussion board for the reason that Ven. Pesala pointed out: “Whoever praises his own religion, due to excessive devotion, and condemns others with the thought ‘Let me glorify my own religion,’ only harms his own religion. Therefore contact (between religions) is good.[24] One should listen to and respect the doctrines professed by others. Beloved-of-the-Gods, King Piyadasi, desires that all should be well-learned in the good doctrines of other religions.”

The shallow, thoughtless manner of discussion often found here on this Dhamma board regarding other religions damages the very possibility for Dhamma discussion. It is counterproductive to the goal of “listening to and respecting the doctrines professed by others.” It corrodes the inner peace that nourishes practice. It is one of the reasons that I personally choose not to visit here as often as I used to, and not to participate as much. Maybe others find Dhamma-supporting value in these polemical jousts; I personally do not. Just the opposite.

For the record: I do not believe in the God you do not believe in. I’m not posting here to defend the god notion or Christianity or any theistic system. What I am saying, however, is that there is a very obvious failure here to listen to our Christian brothers and sisters and to understand them. The very sad part is that many Christians or other theists might be very interested in Dhamma teachings and might find benefit in them, except that instead of finding places to meet in friendship, so many of our Dhamma brothers and sisters bring things to a painful point, slapping down some contrived philosophical god notion and provoking debate on a subject that, quite frankly, is irrelevant not only for Buddhists but also for many Christians and other theists. Very few Christians that I know sit around fretting about the problem of evil, or the attributes of God, or any of the other high-schoolish debate topics that keep on popping up here at Dhamma Wheel and being passed off as somehow instructive of why other faiths are wrong. So much of what I see posted here reflects a fundamental failure to understand basic Christianity as it is widely practiced by many Christians (but not all).

Far more likely is that the practicing Christian will simply say, “I cannot know, I can’t fathom the mystery of God’s workings. I don’t understand how there can be evil, yet I trust in God.” Just as the Buddhist might set aside such questions as “am I or am I not?” “What was I in the past?” “What will I be in the future?” So too a Christian very likely will be inclined to set aside questions such as “Why does God allow natural disasters?” Because the core issue in Christian practice is not to sort out some rock-solid philosophy about the nature of God, but rather to be in relationship with that which some label “God.” The “God” that we see so repeatedly belittled and debated and dismissed here at Dhamma Wheel is in no way, shape or form the “God” that matters to many practicing Christians. You are talking about completely different universes of thought, completely different ways of understanding the term “God.” For many Christians, debates like this have no relevance whatever to Christian practice. And this idea is nothing new. As Martin Luther wrote:“But it is this, that seems to give the greatest offence to common sense or natural reason, — that the God, who is set forth as being so full of mercy and goodness, should, of His mere will, leave men, harden them, and damn them, as though He delighted in the sins, and in the great and eternal torments of the miserable. To think thus of God, seems iniquitous, cruel, intolerable; and it is this that has given offence to so many and great men of so many ages.
“And who would not be offended? I myself have been offended more than once, even unto the deepest abyss of desperation; nay, so far, as even to wish that I had never been born a man; that is, before I was brought to know how healthful that desperation was, and how near it was unto grace.”

Another Christian quote, from the book of Matthew, comes to mind:
Why do you see the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Indeed, this is the passage that very often occurs to me when I see self-professed Buddhists continually bashing the God concept and pillorying those dumb Christians who believe in God. Don’t we notice the log that is in our own eye? Have we truly eradicated sakkaya-ditthi? Have we even arrived at the realization of how deep this sakkaya-ditthi runs? That is our own God concept. Maybe we feel so compelled to attack it in others because we have not yet digested it for ourselves.

I would find it very helpful to see more real Dhamma discussion here with regard to other faiths and religions, and in my book that means listening in friendship and respect. That’s what I originally came here for.


Originally he also posted my comment to his comment that was on Dhamma Wheel. My comment was posted to him via PM because shortly after I posted my msg in the thread, the blog's author's msg was removed by an administrator because it was seen as a meta-discussion, thusly my comment was also removed. Here is my comment that I had posted and that originally appeared on the blog but which the blog's author has since removed, even though my msg would qualify for being included on his blog as a msg that was removed:

Jechbi wrote:You are not the Buddha.
I am not? Good heavens, when did that happen?

I do not understand the preoccupation some self-professed Buddhists here have with the god concept, a concept that is irrelevant to Buddhist practice.
Interesting spin-doctoring. Self-professed. You seem to want self-professed to be a negative. Are not all Buddhists, who consciously, by choice, follow the Buddha’s footsteps, self-professed? As for preoccupation, given the volume of msgs and the number of subjects at play at any time, not that I have noticed.

If it is so irrelevant, then why did the Buddha spend a fair amount of time talking about it? Obviously he must of thought it is worth spending some time considering.

Also, given that Buddhism is surrounded by much larger religions that are theist, and given that most Western converts to Buddhism are from theist backgrounds, some interest in theism is natural and is necessary in understanding the Buddha’s teachings. If that was not the case, the Buddha would not have ever addressed the question of a singular omniscient, permanent, independent, unique cause of the cosmos.

Obviously the Buddha thought it was important to comment on the theism of his day, and certainly Buddhists in India, over many centuries, spent time critically looking at the question of a singular omniscient, permanent, independent, unique cause of the cosmos. And it is not inappropriate to address the question as it is raised, as it will be given the context in which we find ourselves.

I don't understand the recurring preoccupation with god-bashing and Christianity-bashing that repeatedly is on display here at Dhamma Wheel, such as in this thread, and this thread,
Again, with the spinning. Presenting a Buddhist based critique of either the notion of god or some ideas presented by some Christians is not bashing.

In this discussion and in others here on the subject of god and other religions, measured exchanges of viewpoints frequently are not possible. God-bashing is presented as the legitimate form of Dhamma instruction with regard to theistic religions. Those who try to introduce a different perspective find their very motivations subtly called into doubt with personalized comments such as, "Sorry if that notion offends you."
I do not think anyone here has said that Christianity and belief in a singular omniscient, permanent, independent, unique cause of the cosmos cannot be of value to those who hold such views.

This is a very serious flaw on this discussion board for the reason that Ven. Pesala pointed out:
Whoever praises his own religion, due to excessive devotion, and condemns others with the thought "Let me glorify my own religion," only harms his own religion. Therefore contact (between religions) is good.[24] One should listen to and respect the doctrines professed by others. Beloved-of-the-Gods, King Piyadasi, desires that all should be well-learned in the good doctrines of other religions.
"Let me glorify my own religion," at the expense of other religions? That can happen in any religion, and it is not a good thing; however, that does not mean the idea of dependence upon a singular omniscient, permanent, independent, unique cause of the cosmos can not be critically looked at.

And I do not think any of the threads linked above do this: "Let me glorify my own religion," at the expense of other religions

The shallow, thoughtless manner of discussion often found here on this Dhamma board regarding other religions damages the very possibility for Dhamma discussion.
You complain of personalized comments, since you are responding to a msg I posted, it kind of sort of in a way looks like you are making a personalized comment. Hard not to see it that way; hard not to see that you are calling me shallow and thoughtless.

It is counterproductive to the goal of "listening to and respecting the doctrines professed by others."
Depends upon the context. It seems that you, J, do not see any place for critique of any sort in any context.

It corrodes the inner peace that nourishes practice. It is one of the reasons that I personally choose not to visit here as often as I used to, and not to participate as much. Maybe others find Dhamma-supporting value in these polemical jousts; I personally do not. Just the opposite.
Again, you are making this personal, about you, and in turn criticizing me in the process. (And do not deny that you are criticizing me ((making this personal)), given that you are responding to my post and having directly addressed me, and that you have leveled these criticism at me before.)

For the record: I do not believe in the God you do not believe in.
And I do not believe in any god, so it seems we are on the same page.

I'm not posting here to defend the god notion or Christianity or any theistic system. What I am saying, however, is that there is a very obvious failure here to listen to our Christian brothers and sisters and to understand them.
Then maybe what you need to do is petition the admins of Dhamma Wheel to open a new sub-forum that will allow for a “polemic” free zone that will allow for the exchanges with our Christian brothers and sisters who are interested in the Dhamma.

Far more likely is that the practicing Christian will simply say, "I cannot know, I can't fathom the mystery of God's workings. I don't understand how there can be evil, yet I trust in God."
Christians say that all the time. That is their personal choice and belief. And no one here has gone out of their way to get in their faces, shake a finger at them, and tell them they cannot/should not believe so.

We need to keep in mind that forums such as this are market places of ideas, which means they are not going to necessarily be comfortable for everyone all the time. The only way that could happen is by very tight, constant enforcement of very strict rules about what can and cannot be said.

You are talking about completely different universes of thought, completely different ways of understanding the term "God."
Having been a theist, having been a mystical god-experiencing theist, in response to this comment: not necessarily.

For many Christians, debates like this have no relevance whatever to Christian practice. And this idea is nothing new. As Martin Luther wrote:
But it is this, that seems to give the greatest offence to common sense or natural reason, — that the God, who is set forth as being so full of mercy and goodness, should, of His mere will, leave men, harden them, and damn them, as though He delighted in the sins, and in the great and eternal torments of the miserable. To think thus of God, seems iniquitous, cruel, intolerable; and it is this that has given offence to so many and great men of so many ages.
Good old Luther. He makes my point.

Another Christian quote, from the book of Matthew, comes to mind:
Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?
Indeed, this is the passage that very often occurs to me when I see self-professed Buddhists continually bashing the God concept and pillorying those dumb Christians who believe in God.
Pillorying? Not here.

I would find it very helpful to see more real Dhamma discussion here with regard to other faiths and religions, and in my book that means listening in friendship and respect. That's what I originally came here for.
I always find it interesting that someone will complain about the negative tone of a thread or a forum, and in the process adds to the negativity by their very complaint.

There are plenty of active real Dhamma discussions going on here; far and away more than there are “god” discussions. Most are very friendly, some occasionally heated. One has real choices here to make about what to read, what to involve one self in.
This exchange speaks for itself.

The thread from whence these two msgs came: viewtopic.php?f=12&t=6469&start=0
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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tiltbillings
 
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Re: Why would people do that ?

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Jun 05, 2011 9:08 pm

It seems the point has been made about our multi-nicker and his frequesnt sign-ins under different handles. Lest this thread stray too far afield, as it is starting to do, this probably is a good time to shut it down. If anyone really, really has something important to add here, please feel free to drop us a note.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19214
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

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