Why would people do that ?

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Re: Why would people do that ?

Postby chownah » Fri Jun 03, 2011 6:31 am

alan wrote:Undesirable behavior takes many forms, not all of which can be easily explained by ego alone.

Alan,
That's an interesting observation...can you expound on this a bit...maybe give examples of undesirable behavior which can not be explained by ego alone? I guess its best to ignore the obvious view that the only thing that can be explained by the ego alone is the ego.
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Re: Why would people do that ?

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jun 03, 2011 8:16 am

alan wrote:Maybe these people believe their message is so important that behavior doesn't matter.
I have yet to see a double nicker here that was promoting a "message." That certainly has not been the case with the person who has been the most egregious.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
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Re: Why would people do that ?

Postby chownah » Fri Jun 03, 2011 1:23 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
alan wrote:Maybe these people believe their message is so important that behavior doesn't matter.
I have yet to see a double nicker here that was promoting a "message." That certainly has not been the case with the person who has been the most egregious.

From the little I know about this I would say that I tend to agree with you...but perhaps we just don't understand their message.......makes them even more urgent....
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Re: Why would people do that ?

Postby Jason » Fri Jun 03, 2011 3:10 pm

And sitting around discussing what other people do when the people in question are unable to defend themselves is somehow better? Are people really all that different?
"Sabbe dhamma nalam abhinivesaya" (AN 7.58).

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Re: Why would people do that ?

Postby PeterB » Fri Jun 03, 2011 3:14 pm

What about sitting around discussing what people do who sit around discussing people who cant defend themselves, who can defend themselves. Is that any better ?
What about getting all indignant about what other people are discussing is THAT any better ?
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Re: Why would people do that ?

Postby Jason » Fri Jun 03, 2011 3:20 pm

PeterB wrote:What about sitting around discussing what people do who sit around discussing people who cant defend themselves, who can defend themselves. Is that any better ?
What about getting all indignant about what other people are discussing is THAT any better ?


No, which is my point. We all do and say stupid things sometimes, including myself. The real question is, What's the point of publicly trashing Element/Dhamma Dhatu when he's banned and can't even comment? And is doing so really better than what he's being accused of doing? At least the participates in this thread can respond to my point, but the same can't be said for DD, and I don't think that's fair or in line with right speech. Just something to think about.
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Re: Why would people do that ?

Postby Jason » Fri Jun 03, 2011 3:43 pm

Perhaps I should restate my point in another way. Whatever his reasons are for doing what he does, I imagine that he feels justified in doing it, and that's one of the things we all have in common: we do what we often feel justified in doing. I bet he feels justified in continuing to participate on this forum even after being banned, just as I feel justified in questioning the usefulness and fairness of this thread, and others feels justified in questioning my response. Who's really got the moral high ground here? We all probably think we do, but who's in a position to judge? The moderators here are certainly in a position to judge who has and hasn't violated the terms of service, but beyond that, why cast proverbial stones? We all err. Some may seem to do so more than others, but that shouldn't prevent us from looking at our own actions and questioning them as well, because the only heart we can ever truly know is our own.
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Re: Why would people do that ?

Postby Aloka » Fri Jun 03, 2011 3:59 pm

Jason wrote:Perhaps I should restate my point in another way. Whatever his reasons are for doing what he does, I imagine that he feels justified in doing it, and that's one of the things we all have in common: we do what we often feel justified in doing. I bet he feels justified in continuing to participate on this forum even after being banned, just as I feel justified in questioning the usefulness and fairness of this thread, and others feels justified in questioning my response. Who's really got the moral high ground here? We all probably think we do, but who's in a position to judge? The moderators here are certainly in a position to judge who has and hasn't violated the terms of service, but beyond that, why cast proverbial stones? We all err. Some may seem to do so more than others, but that shouldn't prevent us from looking at our own actions and questioning them as well, because the only heart we can ever truly know is our own.



Three very kind and thoughtful posts, Jason. Thank you so much for being a decent human being and the voice of reason instead of bitter accusation .

Yes, we definately all make mistakes, especially me. However, we should be feeling compassion and metta in our hearts, instead of condemnation for Element who cannot answer in the thread for himself. Personally in the last 3 years or so on the internet I have never seen him making claims of personal attainments.

In general, I think we should all look within ourselves instead of sitting around being critical here. Is there still a problem for anyone right here and now ? Let us all relax, Dhamma friends, - and breathe gently together....


Buddha said:

I. Here, monks, a disciple dwells pervading one direction with his heart filled with loving-kindness, likewise the second, the third, and the fourth direction; so above, below and around; he dwells pervading the entire world everywhere and equally with his heart filled with loving-kindness, abundant, grown great, measureless, free from enmity and free from distress.

II. Here, monks, a disciple dwells pervading one direction with his heart filled with compassion, likewise the second, the third and the fourth direction; so above, below and around; he dwells pervading the entire world everywhere and equally with his heart filled with compassion, abundant, grown great, measureless, free from enmity and free from distress.

III. Here, monks, a disciple dwells pervading one direction with his heart filled with sympathetic joy, likewise the second, the third and the fourth direction; so above, below and around; he dwells pervading the entire world everywhere and equally with his heart filled with sympathetic joy, abundant, grown great, measureless, free from enmity and free from distress.

IV. Here, monks, a disciple dwells pervading one direction with his heart filled with equanimity, likewise the second, the third and the fourth direction; so above, below and around; he dwells pervading the entire world everywhere and equally with his heart filled with equanimity, abundant, grown great, measureless, free from enmity and free from distress.

— Digha Nikaya 13



:anjali:
Last edited by Aloka on Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:35 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: Why would people do that ?

Postby PeterB » Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:03 pm

Jason wrote:Perhaps I should restate my point in another way. Whatever his reasons are for doing what he does, I imagine that he feels justified in doing it, and that's one of the things we all have in common: we do what we often feel justified in doing. I bet he feels justified in continuing to participate on this forum even after being banned, just as I feel justified in questioning the usefulness and fairness of this thread, and others feels justified in questioning my response. Who's really got the moral high ground here? We all probably think we do, but who's in a position to judge? The moderators here are certainly in a position to judge who has and hasn't violated the terms of service, but beyond that, why cast proverbial stones? We all err. Some may seem to do so more than others, but that shouldn't prevent us from looking at our own actions and questioning them as well, because the only heart we can ever truly know is our own.

I rather thought that the discussion had become a particular person who actually DOES repeatedly breach the forum TOS and who indulges in acts of deception ( albeit of an infantile kind ) in order to attempt that deception. I dont need to look into my heart and bleed for him.
Neither do you unless you really feel the need. In which case flagellate away.
NB For reasons I would imagine, of delicacy, no one has yet mentioned the fact the particular individual concerned also fires off between joining under a new name and being rumbled, highly personalised PM's under the adopted guise of the moment. That has indeed led several times to his being rumbled. They are basically the same rants in the same style. But with a number of different names attached.
I know a number of people have received them. people who are not mods and who have not been involved in his banning.
The fact is this man has been both on the visible and invisible parts of the forum a running sore for a long time. I think the mods have been extraordinarily balanced and restrained in their reactions to him.
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Re: Why would people do that ?

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jun 03, 2011 5:47 pm

Jason wrote:
PeterB wrote:What about sitting around discussing what people do who sit around discussing people who cant defend themselves, who can defend themselves. Is that any better ?
What about getting all indignant about what other people are discussing is THAT any better ?


No, which is my point. We all do and say stupid things sometimes, including myself. The real question is, What's the point of publicly trashing Element/Dhamma Dhatu when he's banned and can't even comment? And is doing so really better than what he's being accused of doing? At least the participates in this thread can respond to my point, but the same can't be said for DD, and I don't think that's fair or in line with right speech. Just something to think about.
Indeed, we all do and say stupid things, sometimes. Sometimes, but with element that has been an ongoing set of disruptive/deceptive behaviors that certainly transcends an occasional lapse in judgment. Well over 100 "double nicks"/decpetive sign-up under different names is more than an occasional doing -- to use your words -- "stupid things sometimes." It is a sustained, deliberate attack on the forum, and in many instances, also against the membership.

Element has logged last night as "Insultee." We have not banned that name/IP (yet), so element can resoond to comments made (defend himself, as you say), and so we can see element, clearly identified as element, in action: viewtopic.php?f=22&t=8598

Calling attention to the behavior may help make it stop, or, in the very least, it may help the membership understand what is happening when a "new" member mysteriously gets banned/disappears.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Why would people do that ?

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jun 03, 2011 6:07 pm

Aloka wrote: Yes, we definately all make mistakes, especially me. However, we should be feeling compassion and metta in our hearts, instead of condemnation for Element who cannot answer in the thread for himself. Personally in the last 3 years or so on the internet I have never seen him making claims of personal attainments.
Does compassion mean that we allow him to post what he likes, disregarding forum rules, directly insulting and attacking users who disagree with him via PMs? Also, nick/element certainly can respond for himself. We have left his most recent sign-in, in violation of forum rules, stand: viewtopic.php?f=22&t=8598

As for his supposed attainment, I certainly could be wrong, but I do believe that he laid claim to such on E-Sangha and has alluded to such here, but if he were to tell me that he has not ever claimed ariya status, then I'll be be happy to retract my statement and to publicly apologize. No problem.

But, geez, Aloka, forgive us and have some compassion on us if we see that these repeated incursions and deceptions by nick/element as being time wasting attacks on the forum. How would you like it if someone spent a great deal of time playing with your forum these sorts games nick/element is playing here? Maybe you can talk to your friend about stopping this bad behavior.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Why would people do that ?

Postby Modus.Ponens » Fri Jun 03, 2011 6:12 pm

The golden rule in dealing with trolls is not feeding them, so this discussion is only making it worse (involuntarily of course).
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"
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Re: Why would people do that ?

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jun 03, 2011 6:19 pm

Modus.Ponens wrote:The golden rule in dealing with trolls is not feeding them, so this discussion is only making it worse (involuntarily of course).
Not necessarily. As I said, it will have, at least, the virtue of informing the user base here that this is going on and it will help people understand why when an element sockpuppet is banned. As for the troll, it really has not mattered what we do, he just keeps coming back. Shining light on trolls may not be a bad thing.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Why would people do that ?

Postby PeterB » Fri Jun 03, 2011 6:55 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
Modus.Ponens wrote:The golden rule in dealing with trolls is not feeding them, so this discussion is only making it worse (involuntarily of course).
Not necessarily. As I said, it will have, at least, the virtue of informing the user base here that this is going on and it will help people understand why when an element sockpuppet is banned. As for the troll, it really has not matter what we do, he just keeps coming back. Shining light on trolls may not be a bad thing.

And as has been pointed out a lot of his most virulent activity is carried on behind the scenes via PM.
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Re: Why would people do that ?

Postby Aloka » Fri Jun 03, 2011 7:23 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
Aloka wrote: Yes, we definately all make mistakes, especially me. However, we should be feeling compassion and metta in our hearts, instead of condemnation for Element who cannot answer in the thread for himself. Personally in the last 3 years or so on the internet I have never seen him making claims of personal attainments.
Does compassion mean that we allow him to post what he likes, disregarding forum rules, directly insulting and attacking users who disagree with him via PMs? Also, nick/element certainly can respond for himself. We have left his most recent sign-in, in violation of forum rules, stand: viewtopic.php?f=22&t=8598

As for his supposed attainment, I certainly could be wrong, but I do believe that he laid claim to such on E-Sangha and has alluded to such here, but if he were to tell me that he has not ever claimed ariya status, then I'll be be happy to retract my statement and to publicly apologize. No problem.

But, geez, Aloka, forgive us and have some compassion on us if we see that these repeated incursions and deceptions by nick/element as being time wasting attacks on the forum. How would you like it if someone spent a great deal of time playing with your forum these sorts games nick/element is playing here? Maybe you can talk to your friend about stopping this bad behavior.


Hiyah Tilt,

I forgive you and "us" my son and will pray for y'all! ... _/\_

Seriously though, I've had all sorts of problems with people at my forum both publicly and privately by pm, including being publicly challenged, as well as condemned to the hell realms and told terrible things are ahead because of my karma - and received crazy e-mail harassment from Vajrayana practioners who couldn't handle my change over to Theravada and so on and so forth.

Its the nature of human beings and the internet though, isn't it ! I'm really not into feuding though, I like to try to be friends with everyone and I've only ever permanently banned one person and that was because as well as the nasty forum postings, his private interactions with me were starting to get really creepy.

As for Element -yes I regard him as a friend - but I certainly don't monitor his movements on the internet, not do I have any control over what he does.


with kind wishes to all,

Aloka
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Re: Why would people do that ?

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jun 03, 2011 7:34 pm

Aloka wrote: I'm really not into feuding though, I like to try to be friends with everyone and I've only ever permanently banned one person myself and that was because his private interactions with me were starting to get really creepy.
Dhamma Wheel is a bit more active than is your forum, so likely we are going to have to deal with a bit more of this than you. Fortunately there are not a lot of problems, but the majority of time spent dealing with problems has been spent around one person. From our standpoint this is not a "feud," but it is a waste of time having to deal with element's creepy behavior. As i said, there may be virtue in shining light on this trollish behavior. So far nothing else has worked.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Why would people do that ?

Postby Akuma » Sat Jun 04, 2011 8:04 am

PeterB wrote:I sometimes think the older I get the less I understand.
Why would someone repeatedly crash a site they are banned from ( two sites in fact ) ?
Why would they adopt a range of nics and re-enter a site just to cause problems for that site ?
I can understand getting banned , and then slipping under the radar and continuing to post while keeping your nose clean.
I am baffled by those who rejoin a forum in order simply to pick fights....While still professing an interest in Dhamma... :thinking:


Theres no better way not to come into contact with that uncertainty inside of oneself than to engage in endless discussions in which one can convince oneself that one has answers.
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Re: Why would people do that ?

Postby Aloka » Sat Jun 04, 2011 8:59 am

PeterB wrote:I sometimes think the older I get the less I understand.

Why .........

Why .........




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Re: Why would people do that ?

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Jun 04, 2011 9:25 am

Aloka wrote:As for Element -yes I regard him as a friend - but I certainly don't monitor his movements on the internet, not do I have any control over what he does.
Only element/nick is responsible for his actions, but since you are his friend -- so you say --, why don't you ask why he is so persistent in making an unpleasant pest of himself. That would speak directly to the OP and maybe we can be understand this annoying behavior.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Why would people do that ?

Postby PeterB » Sat Jun 04, 2011 9:26 am

I guess we have all been there.
Stuck between loyalty, and defending the clearly indefensible.
And 100 double nicks and concomitant sneering and fraudulent ( in the sense of pretending to come from people unknown to the receiver ) Personal Messages IS indefensible.
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