Soto-Zen: Dogen (Shobogenzo)

[David2]

Did anybody of you read Dogen's Shobogenzo or even some other scriptures by him?
If so, what do you think of Dogen?

I am currently reading the Shobogenzo (first third finished) and I must say I am surprised how disrespectful he is towards Theravada views... of course, he is not a Theravadin, but even a Mahayanist does not have to claim that virtually everything in Theravada teachings is wrong...

What is your opinion?

[plwk]

Is your practice dependent on what he thinks? If not, why bother?
Not everybody's cup of tea is anyone's cup of tea...just drink your own coffee...
If you think he's spicy, wait until you read on Nichiren...

[David2]

Is your practice dependent on what he thinks?

No, but it is still interesting to discuss. I am currently just wondering how Dogen got to his rather radical views...

just drink your own coffee...

Why not discuss the views of these other traditions, too? I think, basically we can only benefit. (One of the best remedies for narrow-mindedness.)

It is not my purpose to blame Dogen... I am just trying to understand him.

[plwk]

Why not discuss the views of these other traditions, too? I think, basically we can only benefit. (One of the best remedies for narrow-mindedness.)

I can go on for pages here with you in here but guess what?
From past experience, I recall in some threads where one gets bold reminders like the Dhamma Wheel's big banner at the top page from 'purists'...so when I see threads with headings like this one...I doubt how far your intended aims can go...good luck

[christopher:::]

Part of Dogen's thinking had to do with the age he lived in, and the animosity between various schools in Japan. There was also simply great ignorance about Theravada Buddhism. He really didn't know that much about it, other then what others may have told him or that he read about, imo. In the Shobogenzo passages where he was critical is it Theravadan Buddhism he speaks of or does he use the phrase "Hinayana" ?

The less then right speech and ideas that some Mahayana Buddhists had (historically) for non-Mahayan Buddhism has been discussed extensively I think in various other threads. Bottom line, it comes from ignorance, lack of knowledge. The derogatory meaning of the term HInayana tells a lot about the mindset of superiority there, which stretches back almost 2000 years..

Hīnayāna (हीनयान) is a Sanskrit and Pāli term literally meaning: the "Deficient Vehicle", the "Abandoned Vehicle", or the "Defective Vehicle". The term appeared around the 1st or 2nd century.

Again, this was how people thought then. It's like looking really closely at things Abraham Lincoln had to say about African slaves, sometimes he could sound a bit racist from our modern perspective. Was that Abe's fault or just the norm then?

What does matter is when Mahayana Buddhists in this day and age pick up a book like that and then take all the critical stuff Dogen said as truth. That's highly unwise, imo.

[plwk]

Let's just take one here...discussed to death in threads here on 'Buddha Nature'

http://www.dogensangha.org/questions.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
In chapter 22 of Shobogenzo entitled “Bussho”, or “The Buddha-nature,” Master Dogen describes Buddha-nature as follows (Book 2, P. 6, L. 1.):
“If you want to know this Buddha-nature, remember, causes and circumstances as real time are just it.”
Therefore Buddha-nature does never exist in the past and it does never exist in future, but it exists just only at the present moment. So we can think that Buddha-nature is Reality just at the present moment.

He himself struggled greatly with this: if all human beings are born with Buddha Nature, why is it so difficult to realize it?
Of course he 'resolved' that later with Eisai, his Rinzai guru but comparing it (there are threads in here) with the Theravada view, they don't even recognise the very concept (not to mention the myriad understandings of it within Mahayana) and is not found in their Dhamma, although there are some more 'open minded' Theravadins who dare compare/discuss it with the idea of 'luminous mind' but again, it is being rendered an idea not found in the Pali Canon nor in Theravada thought...

And don't forget, he was not very complimenting about the other Mahayana Buddhist Traditions back then, so it's not an exclusive 'Hinayana' thingy...

[Dan74]

When people like Dogen speak of "Hinayana" they are speaking of a Mahayana construct (perhaps corresponding to an extinct school) but not of Theravada, of which they knew next to nothing.

Roughly speaking, Hinayana means a practice focused on eradicating defilements and focusing on personal liberation (whatever this means).

It's also worth keeping in mind that while "hina" is not a nice word in Pali (meaning "poor", "deficient" or even "vile") the term "Hinayana" was translated into Chinese and Tibetan as "Small Vehicle" or "Lesser Vehicle".

[Ben]

I am just trying to understand him.

Then perhaps you will come to a better understanding if you discuss Dogen at http://www.dharmawheel.net" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (Dhamma Wheel's Mahayana sister-site).