Being kind of violent and still reach stream-enter?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
villkorkarma
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Being kind of violent and still reach stream-enter?

Post by villkorkarma »

is it possible to have a evil behaviour and still proceed to nirvana?
I ve readed about the zenmaster that was hitting his students...

And i ve readed about killers that was being enlightened after they heard about buddhas teachings.

How can this be?
one suffer because one hasnt existed long : )
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Dan74
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Re: Being kind of violent and still reach stream-enter?

Post by Dan74 »

Of course not. Moral virtue is the necessary foundation of any real spiritual practice.

As for Zen masters hitting students, well, sometimes it is the compassionate thing to do and not a product of anger.

And as for a killer reaching nibbana, that's after he had repented his old ways. No one is beyond hope.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
_/|\_
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James the Giant
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Re: Being kind of violent and still reach stream-enter?

Post by James the Giant »

IIRC there were some warlords in ancient Japan who were considered to be... perhaps not enlightened, but certainly past stream entry. They commanded their armies, fought battles, killed people, burned villages, etc.
I don't have any references or anything though...
Then,
saturated with joy,
you will put an end to suffering and stress.
SN 9.11
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kirk5a
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Re: Being kind of violent and still reach stream-enter?

Post by kirk5a »

James the Giant wrote:IIRC there were some warlords in ancient Japan who were considered to be... perhaps not enlightened, but certainly past stream entry. They commanded their armies, fought battles, killed people, burned villages, etc.
I don't have any references or anything though...
I'm very, extremely, skeptical of that notion. Considered by whom? There would have been a vested interest in giving their actions religious sanction...
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Dan74
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Re: Being kind of violent and still reach stream-enter?

Post by Dan74 »

Monks have blessed tanks in Sri Lanka and Zen "masters" have endorsed killing. Wars were waged in Christ's name, Thailand and Burma fought to steal great Buddha statues from each other. So what's new?
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Ben
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Re: Being kind of violent and still reach stream-enter?

Post by Ben »

kirk5a wrote:
James the Giant wrote:IIRC there were some warlords in ancient Japan who were considered to be... perhaps not enlightened, but certainly past stream entry. They commanded their armies, fought battles, killed people, burned villages, etc.
I don't have any references or anything though...
I'm very, extremely, skeptical of that notion. Considered by whom? There would have been a vested interest in giving their actions religious sanction...
I agree.
james wrote:IIRC there were some warlords in ancient Japan who were considered to be... perhaps not enlightened, but certainly past stream entry.
James, one of the defining characteristics of a sotapanna is perfect sila.
kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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alan
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Re: Being kind of violent and still reach stream-enter?

Post by alan »

Hi Ben, James;
D.T. Suzuki was an exponent of Japanese militarism, yet some consider him to be worth reading even today.
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Ben
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Re: Being kind of violent and still reach stream-enter?

Post by Ben »

Hi Alan
Yes, I have read DT Suzuki myself and I also believe he is worth reading.
However, I maintain that a defining characteristic of a sotapanna is perfect sila.

As to DT Suzuki's involvement in WWII and claims of or speculation regarding his spiritual attainment - I'll leave that to others.
kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

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plwk
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Re: Being kind of violent and still reach stream-enter?

Post by plwk »

Monks have blessed tanks in Sri Lanka and Zen "masters" have endorsed killing. Wars were waged in Christ's name, Thailand and Burma fought to steal great Buddha statues from each other. So what's new?
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kirk5a
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Re: Being kind of violent and still reach stream-enter?

Post by kirk5a »

Ben wrote:Hi Alan
Yes, I have read DT Suzuki myself and I also believe he is worth reading.
However, I maintain that a defining characteristic of a sotapanna is perfect sila.

As to DT Suzuki's involvement in WWII and claims of or speculation regarding his spiritual attainment - I'll leave that to others.
kind regards

Ben
Hi Ben

I'm curious how you regard "perfect sila" - what would that mean, in more detail?
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
alan
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Re: Being kind of violent and still reach stream-enter?

Post by alan »

I was just trying to tease out a reaction from our Zen friends.
Here are a couple of interesting reads. You may be surprised. http://atheism.about.com/od/bookreviews/fr/ZenAtWar" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.
http://www.racematters.org/zenatwar.htm
edit--cleaned the presentation.
There are other books telling the same sad story.
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Ben
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Re: Being kind of violent and still reach stream-enter?

Post by Ben »

Hi Kirk
kirk5a wrote:
Ben wrote:Hi Alan
Yes, I have read DT Suzuki myself and I also believe he is worth reading.
However, I maintain that a defining characteristic of a sotapanna is perfect sila.

As to DT Suzuki's involvement in WWII and claims of or speculation regarding his spiritual attainment - I'll leave that to others.
kind regards

Ben
Hi Ben

I'm curious how you regard "perfect sila" - what would that mean, in more detail?
Perfection in three ways:
1. abstaining oneself from performing any breach of sila
2. not encouraging others to break their sila and
3. not speaking in praise of the breaking of sila.


"One for whom these teachings are accepted thus after being pondered to a sufficient degree with wisdom is called a dhamma-follower, one who has entered the fixed course of rightness, entered the plane of superior persons, transcended the plane of the worldlings. He is incapable of doing any deed by reason of which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal realm, or in the domain of ghosts; he is incapable of passing away without having realized the fruit of stream-entry." SN 25.10
kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
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Dan74
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Re: Being kind of violent and still reach stream-enter?

Post by Dan74 »

"The reaction from our Zen friends?" :)

I don't have feel the need to protect Japanese Zen clergy. Some people have poked holes in Brian Victoria scholarship - it seems that some of statements were taken out of context and somewhat misinterpreted. But in any case there was quite a bit of support for the war among the Zen teachers with a few exceptions that were clamped down on.

Even very insightful and intelligent people can get swept up by mass mentality like in Germany and Japan before the war. I wouldn't think they were enlightened but they could still possess a degree of insight in other matters. It is not a trivial task to be in the world but not of the world, to have the finger on the pulse and to see beyond the currents of time.

Of course some commentators (like Thomas Cleary) believe that Zen in Japan has degenerated but from what I hear there are still pockets of the real deal here and there and hopefully the revival of Western interest will help to reinvigorate Japanese Zen and reconnect it with its origins where such connection has been weakened or lost.

I remember on the defunct ESangha, a Japanese Soto practitioner matilda often came into conflict on substantial issues with Western Zen teachers which also shows that may be assuming too much when we extrapolate from Western Zen to Japanese Zen. What we see is often just the tip of the iceberg (and often the wrong iceberg!) and there is invariably much more to the tradition.
_/|\_
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Ben
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Re: Being kind of violent and still reach stream-enter?

Post by Ben »

Dan74 wrote:What we see is often just the tip of the iceberg (and often the wrong iceberg!) and there is invariably much more to the tradition.
Indeed!
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
alan
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Re: Being kind of violent and still reach stream-enter?

Post by alan »

What we see is a tradition that was pro-war for generations.
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