Human reborn as Human

[Kenshou]

Well yeah, just talking about prediction in general, regardless of weather that is what tarot cards were initially meant for.

[Ceisiwr]

Well yeah, just talking about prediction in general, regardless of weather that is what tarot cards were initially meant for.

Wouldn't prediction and telling of the future entail that the future was set, i.e. determined (if it was possible)

[Kenshou]

I'm not saying it makes any sense! But people do try to do it, and that's all I'm addressing.

[nobody12345]

@clw-uk.
Yes, you are absolutely correct to consider magic as a strong attachment to superstition.
That's the best attitude when it comes to magic because it is not beneficial.
And regarding the two dimensions I saw, I am afraid I rather not say.
All I am going to say is one among the two, I encountered it multiple times.
And regarding residents of the other realms, I am standing by my comment that they are delusional because they have long life span.
And I am standing by my comment that they can bring intense joy for the medium and it certainly develops craving/attachment.
People who had no encounter hardly believe and that is a good thing.
It is not beneficial and I wish all the other people (especially young ones) have same attitude like you, clw-uk.
In Metta.

[Ceisiwr]

Yes, you are absolutely correct to consider magic as a strong attachment to superstition.

Ok

That's the best attitude when it comes to magic because it is not beneficial.

Because its not real...

And regarding the two dimensions I saw, I am afraid I rather not say.
All I am going to say is one among the two, I encountered it multiple times.

Why not say?

People who had no encounter hardly believe and that is a good thing.

I have never seen any evidence that "magic" is nothing other than wish thinking

It is not beneficial and I wish all the other people (especially young ones) have same attitude like you, clw-uk.

I agree that it is not beneficial


metta

[nobody12345]

My point is not about to discuss whether magic is working or not.
My point is about the fact that it is not beneficial especially when it comes to channeling to devas or the other realms.
And from what I observed from the channeling in general is, spiritual beings are many times lying or delusional or both.
Many of beings believe they are something else when clearly they are not.
In other words, they are either liars or delusional and both of them are like reserved ticket for lower rebirth so human realm will not likely experience birth rate drop.
That was my whole point.
In Metta.

[Ceisiwr]

My point is not about to discuss whether magic is working or not.

Fair enough

My point is about the fact that it is not beneficial especially when it comes to channeling to devas or the other realms.

Why would anyone want to?

And from what I observed from the channeling in general is, spiritual beings are many times lying or delusional or both.Many of beings believe they are something else when clearly they are not.
In other words, they are either liars or delusional and both of them are like reserved ticket for lower rebirth so human realm will not likely experience birth rate drop.
That was my whole point.

Well I dont believe in such things so think I will leave that there

[son of dhamma]

If one doesn't "believe" in beings of other planes such as the devas and asuras, then why does one ask about personal experiences--only to discredit them as self-delusion? That, in itself, is a stronger self-delusion; to assume that others are deluded.
If one doesn't find that magic isn't real, and declares so, then it is obvious to anyone who is truly acquainted with magical power that this person has never grasped it clearly.
with metta

[Ceisiwr]

If one doesn't "believe" in beings of other planes such as the devas and asuras, then why does one ask about personal experiences--only to discredit them as self-delusion?

It wasnt just about such "planes" but about tarot cards and magic in general

That, in itself, is a stronger self-delusion; to assume that others are deluded.

Was Buddha deluded in thinking that Mahavirha was deluded?

If one doesn't find that magic isn't real, and declares so, then it is obvious to anyone who is truly acquainted with magical power that this person has never grasped it clearly.
with metta

I see so magic spells and hexes and the like exist? Ignoring the fact that this would mean the world would be in chaos, what is magic?

[nobody12345]

As long as one has arrived on the path of Dhamma, all is good.
It doesn't matter whatever belief one had.
Someone came from Christianity to Dhamma, I say it's good.
Someone came from agnostic to Dhamma, I say it's good.
Someone came from Hinduism to Dhamma, I say it's good.
Someone came from materialism to Dhamma, I say it's good.
Someone came from whatever practice to Dhamma, I say it's good.
As long as we have found the correct path, after many wonderings of Samsara, it's all good.
We should rejoice because it's a rare to have a chance to hear Dhamma and came to the correct path.
In Metta.

[son of dhamma]

And from what I observed from the channeling in general is, spiritual beings are many times lying or delusional or both.Many of beings believe they are something else when clearly they are not.
In other words, they are either liars or delusional and both of them are like reserved ticket for lower rebirth so human realm will not likely experience birth rate drop.
That was my whole point.

Well I dont believe in such things so think I will leave that there

It sounds like here that you were indeed claiming a disbelief in "spiritual beings", i.e. the devas and asuras (also petas) of other sensual planes.

Was Buddha deluded in thinking that Mahavirha was deluded?

The Buddha did not assume that Mahavirha was deluded, he knew so based on his direct, albeit omniscient understanding of the matters. Recognizing delusion is indeed wisdom, but claiming that something is delusional without having gained insight into the phenomenological workings of it, is due to a stronger still delusion. It is the prime delusion of intellectualism.

I see so magic spells and hexes and the like exist? Ignoring the fact that this would mean the world would be in chaos, what is magic?

Spells do exist, they're created and cast quite often and the casters are usually unaware of it. The world is not in chaos because of it, it is part of the world, it is part of the balance. It is in fact more destructive to the world that so much of human culture has forgotten the pertinent reality of it, and that its potency is sometimes ridiculously inert because of this.
with metta

[Ceisiwr]

As long as one has arrived on the path of Dhamma, all is good.
It doesn't matter whatever belief one had.
Someone came from Christianity to Dhamma, I say it's good.
Someone came from agnostic to Dhamma, I say it's good.
Someone came from Hinduism to Dhamma, I say it's good.
Someone came from materialism to Dhamma, I say it's good.
Someone came from whatever practice to Dhamma, I say it's good.
As long as we have found the correct path, after many wonderings of Samsara, it's all good.
We should rejoice because it's a rare chance to hear Dhamma and came to the correct path.
In Metta.

Sadhu!

[Ceisiwr]

It sounds like here that you were indeed claiming a disbelief in "spiritual beings", i.e. the devas and asuras (also petas) of other sensual planes.

I have no view of them no, not in the way you seem to

The Buddha did not assume that Mahavirha was deluded, he knew so based on his direct, albeit omniscient understanding of the matters. Recognizing delusion is indeed wisdom, but claiming that something is delusional without having gained insight into the phenomenological workings of it, is due to a stronger still delusion. It is the prime delusion of intellectualism.

Knowing how a delusion arises is knowledge

Do you read my mind?

Spells do exist, they're created and cast quite often and the casters are usually unaware of it. The world is not in chaos because of it, it is part of the world, it is part of the balance. It is in fact more destructive to the world that so much of human culture has forgotten the pertinent reality of it, and that its potency is sometimes ridiculously inert because of this.
with metta

Sounds more like superstitious wicca than liberative Dhamma to me


I ask you again, what is magic? How do you know it exists? How do you know there is a balance?

If people could cast spells, the world would be subject to wish thinking and would be in chaos

[son of dhamma]

Spells are not structures of "wish-thinking", that is bland ignorance.
Despite that you associate it with superstition or Wicca, it isn't related to liberation. Of course, the Buddha didn't teach us magic of any kind, especially not sorcery. He didn't because it isn't the Way to the Cessation of Suffering.
However it is still a practical and real dimension of existence that is helpful to recognize, and for some people helpful to practice also. For others, still, there is a certain degree of necessity--or the alternative for them is to become a monk or nun, which is often much less practical.
Magic is simply a general term for one of the natural arts, a thing of phenomenological law that involves symbols, mechanisms of symbols, layers of these mechanisms, or sometimes just the implications of the symbols themselves causes these forces to work. It is a very fine mechanical art-form, and exponentially delicate. It isn't confined to spirits, to animals, or to being of others planes. Representing, organizing, connecting, associating, and patterning these symbols in certain constructs and in various formats is a firm method of employing various supernormal forces (this is not confined to spirits) to enact certain agendas.
It isn't wish-thinking, it is a scientific field that is so very delicate as to become more precise the further it is understood. It also has everything to do with the forces allowing the enabling of the magic. It certainly cannot be discredited by anyone who decides to call it something perverse in stead of acknowledging an obvious misunderstanding of its nature, calling it this or that derogatorily. But with all things of sacredness, there is either attentive inquisition or blind disfavor.
with metta

[Ceisiwr]

Spells are not structures of "wish-thinking", that is bland ignorance

Of course they are, want something to be true and somehow you change reality to suite your desires...

Despite that you associate it with superstition or Wicca, it isn't related to liberation. Of course, the Buddha didn't teach us magic of any kind, especially not sorcery. He didn't because it isn't the Way to the Cessation of Suffering.

Because its superstition and that leads to dukkha

However it is still a practical and real dimension of existence that is helpful to recognize, and for some people helpful to practice also. For others, still, there is a certain degree of necessity--or the alternative for them is to become a monk or nun, which is often much less practical.

Prove it

Magic is simply a general term for one of the natural arts, a thing of phenomenological law that involves symbols, mechanisms of symbols, layers of these mechanisms, or sometimes just the implications of the symbols themselves causes these forces to work. It is a very fine mechanical art-form, and exponentially delicate. It isn't confined to spirits, to animals, or to being of others planes. Representing, organizing, connecting, associating, and patterning these symbols in certain constructs and in various formats is a firm method of employing various supernormal forces (this is not confined to spirits) to enact certain agendas.

A lot of words and white noise but you still havent

A) Proved that magic exists

B) What it is

It isn't wish-thinking, it is a scientific field that is so very delicate as to become more precise the further it is understood.

Oh yeah, remember that science class of magic in uni

It also has everything to do with the forces allowing the enabling of the magic. It certainly cannot be discredited by anyone who decides to call it something perverse in stead of acknowledging an obvious misunderstanding of its nature, calling it this or that derogatorily. But with all things of sacredness, there is either attentive inquisition or blind disfavor.