Must one "believe" in the Four Noble Truths?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Hoo
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Re: Must one "believe" in the Four Noble Truths?

Post by Hoo »

Belief is, however, where one has to start
In my experience, Tilt, that isn't true. I began in disbelief, distrust, suffering, etc. If it weren't for the Buddha's advice to the Kalamas, I wouldn't have undertaken to "test the system" to see if it worked. I'd already had decades of what I'll kindly call religious nonsense, all of which failed, so I was primed for Buddhism to be just another failure of promises. I had begun to believe the pop comment that, "life sucks and then you die." - that suffering would always win out in the end, no escape from it.

What drove me to try Buddhism was wanting relief from the suffering. What drove me to work at it was the advice to the Kalamas (badly summarized here) to not take the teachings on blind faith or the words of others, but to try it - come and see. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html for the Sutta in English.

So I started trying to live the Four Noble Truths and the Eightfold Path. In time I discovered that the Buddha was right, the Dhamma is true - it works. Suffering was defeated when I worked the program. Not only that but suffering was not all-powerful and destined to win - that was a very freeing experience. I began to understand some words I had read in Dhamma, like unbound, and liberation., and I could see how that could really be possible!

Two years later (almost) and I am still practicing. I've added things to my practice, like taking refuge daily and Metta meditation to "incline my mind," mindfulness and the Brahma Viharas, and emptiness practice. I have begun to call myself a Buddhist even though I don't accept everything that's out there. But I practice the Buddha's teachings - so what else would I write in the blank on the form I'm filling out? ;)

Belief eventually became part of the picture, but it was far down the road from the starting point.

Hoo
Skaffen
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Re: Must one "believe" in the Four Noble Truths?

Post by Skaffen »

kirk5a wrote:
Skaffen wrote: Nirvana is 'releasing breath', it is in the moments when the pieces fall into place with no friction and the result is even more than you could have anticipated, a new tier in understanding....it's not a once in a lifetime rarity, not if you are making any progress.
If in such moments as you are describing, there is the complete cessation of craving/clinging-mind, then it's Nirvana. Otherwise it's just something you'd like to "believe" is Nirvana.
'complete cessation' is not possible, you will always be stuck with your desire to eliminate desire and suffering. The particular terminology you use suggests an attachment to others poor judgement (3rd NT...'eradication of desire', is not possible, suffering can't be Truth if it is possible to contravene, so if you want 3rd you have to sacrifice 1st - probably clear 4 quite easily when you get out the loop.

When that last piece fits into the puzzle there is a short burst of joyous understanding that causes you to breathe out.......Aaaaahhhhaaa, so that's how it works! - That's the sensation of enlightenment, when it creates a new vantage point for you to see more in more detail it is profound.
rowyourboat
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Re: Must one "believe" in the Four Noble Truths?

Post by rowyourboat »

Hi All

Clearly some degree of 'belief' is required to even think of exploring the dhamma, without rejecting it outright as plain nonsense.

With maturity in the practice as deeper and deeper aspects of the dhamma are seen to be true- this belief/confidence grows so that one becomes inclined to believe even deeper more difficult Truths as proclaimed by the Buddha. So this belief becomes stronger the deeper one traverses along this path.

with metta
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha
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kirk5a
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Re: Must one "believe" in the Four Noble Truths?

Post by kirk5a »

Skaffen wrote:
'complete cessation' is not possible, you will always be stuck with your desire to eliminate desire and suffering.
The Buddha said the 3rd NT is "the remainderless fading & cessation, renunciation, relinquishment, release, & letting go of that very craving."

So... are you saying that is not possible?

Thanks for the experience report. Color me skeptical re: "the sensation of enlightenment." Sounds to me like working through some kind of intellectual "puzzle." But that's your business, you could see what an experienced Buddhist meditation teacher has to say about that.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Goofaholix
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Re: Must one "believe" in the Four Noble Truths?

Post by Goofaholix »

Guy wrote:In order to examine and test the Teaching, one must first *believe* that it is worth the time and effort it takes to examine and test the Teachings. This is not a case of symantics, as anyone who has honestly tried to practice the Noble Eightfold Path will testify to the amount of time and effort that is required to do so. I think all of us would have to agree that if we are going to invest a significant amount of time and effort into any task we'd like to *believe* that it was a worthwhile investment.
The same could be said of any undertaking that takes time and effort.

I might believe that studying towards a university degree is a worthwhile investment and worth the time and effort, practicing the 4NT is much the same in this regard, however I'm sure nobody would suggest one must believe in a univiersity education in the same way one mught believe in God for example.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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tiltbillings
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Re: Must one "believe" in the Four Noble Truths?

Post by tiltbillings »

Hoo wrote: What drove me to try Buddhism was wanting relief from the suffering. What drove me to work at it was the advice to the Kalamas (badly summarized here) to not take the teachings on blind faith or the words of others, but to try it - come and see. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html for the Sutta in English.
It is always interesting to hear other's experiences along these lines. Certainly, however, you would not have worked with the Kalama Sutta if you did believe that there might to be something to it, but then, I believe we could be talking about the same thing from differing points of view and I could also be wrong.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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KonstantKarma
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Re: Must one "believe" in the Four Noble Truths?

Post by KonstantKarma »

Skaffen wrote:
kirk5a wrote:
Skaffen wrote: Nirvana is 'releasing breath', it is in the moments when the pieces fall into place with no friction and the result is even more than you could have anticipated, a new tier in understanding....it's not a once in a lifetime rarity, not if you are making any progress.
If in such moments as you are describing, there is the complete cessation of craving/clinging-mind, then it's Nirvana. Otherwise it's just something you'd like to "believe" is Nirvana.
'complete cessation' is not possible, you will always be stuck with your desire to eliminate desire and suffering.
Welp, I better throw in the towel and quit wasting my time on this Buddhism crap!
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tiltbillings
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Re: Must one "believe" in the Four Noble Truths?

Post by tiltbillings »

KonstantKarma wrote:
Skaffen wrote:'complete cessation' is not possible, you will always be stuck with your desire to eliminate desire and suffering.
Welp, I better throw in the towel and quit wasting my time on this Buddhism crap!
I don't think Skaffen knows much about the Buddha's teachings.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Cloud
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Re: Must one "believe" in the Four Noble Truths?

Post by Cloud »

We do have to have an initial belief in the Four Noble Truths if we are to find Buddhism a worthy practice for liberation. This initial belief or confidence in the teachings comes to us in many ways, not the least of which is the reasonable prognosis that it is our craving/thirst or rather expectations of life that cause us suffering.

Gradually though we come to experience these truths for ourselves, through direct experience. I posted an example on another forum recently, which I will sum-up here:

If you stop yourself from fulfilling a desire, such as wanting to check your e-mail, but keep your mind on that desire... you will notice the pain that it causes (that you seem to be causing yourself by holding back). Staying with that pain, it will grow. One can meditate on the pain to see it with even greater focus. What this demonstrates is the relationship between Tanha and Dukkha, shedding experiential light on the 1st & 2nd Noble Truths. The Buddha said that it was exactly through not penetrating fully the Four Noble Truths that we remain bound; we must directly experience, for ourselves, these truths. Don't just read this and say "wow yeah, that makes sense"... it will have served no purpose whatsoever. Apply it. Try it out, make it part of your practice to notice the arising of dukkha and its conditions.

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KonstantKarma
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Re: Must one "believe" in the Four Noble Truths?

Post by KonstantKarma »

tiltbillings wrote:
KonstantKarma wrote:
Skaffen wrote:'complete cessation' is not possible, you will always be stuck with your desire to eliminate desire and suffering.
Welp, I better throw in the towel and quit wasting my time on this Buddhism crap!
I don't think Skaffen knows much about the Buddha's teachings.
Tilt, sure hope not... I'd hate to think the Buddhas are a buncha liars and everything.
alan
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Re: Must one "believe" in the Four Noble Truths?

Post by alan »

Start with the first one. I don't think it is a question of what you believe or do not believe.
If life does not seem to be saturated with Dukkha, if you are totally pleased with Samsara, then nothing of the rest will seem to be of value.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Must one "believe" in the Four Noble Truths?

Post by tiltbillings »

Off-topic msgs have been moved here: http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 78#p102776" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Individual
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Re: Must one "believe" in the Four Noble Truths?

Post by Individual »

tiltbillings wrote:
Skaffen wrote:Seems to me the cart got before the horse with the question.

'Believing', implies a static frame of mind. You don't arrive at 'Truth', you journey through it.
Knowledge is mundane.
Poor belief; has such a bad reputation. If belief in Buddhism is a tool for investigation, for practice, for inspiration, then there is not a thing static about it. Belief is, however, where one has to start.
Instead of "belief," it might also simply be "disbelief," in various delusions.

Also, as I see it, dhamma practice is a wheel made up of many interconnected axles, among which belief is just one of many and it does not matter where one starts, only that one starts. Sometimes action can precede belief, sometimes belief can precede action, or arise at the same time. For a person who is stubbornly set in their ways because of views of self, it is only through spontaneous improvement (repeated many times) that there is any meaningful change.
The best things in life aren't things.

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rowyourboat
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Re: Must one "believe" in the Four Noble Truths?

Post by rowyourboat »

Hi Individual,

It seems you are here to tell us what you think- ie your personal view of the world. Are you capable of learning as well? If so this forum will be of great help to you- otherwise once you have said your piece no one will be interested.

with metta
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha
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