Did the Buddha teach we have choice? (aka The Great Free Will v Determinism Debate)

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Goofaholix
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Re: Did the Buddha teach strict determinism?

Post by Goofaholix »

Alex123 wrote:
Goofaholix wrote: Again, it is knowledge that liberates.
If it were knowledge that liberates the Universities would be full of Arahants, it's wisdom that liberates, and wisdom goes beyond the digesting and regurgitating knowledge or scripture.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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Alex123
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Re: Did the Buddha teach strict determinism?

Post by Alex123 »

Hi Geoff, all,
Ñāṇa wrote:There is a difference between complete, unconditional autonomous control on the one hand, and functional choice on the other. Just because there is no permanent, satisfactory autonomous Self wielding power and unconditional control over the aggregates doesn't mean that there is no functional choice.
-Is "functional choice" within or outside of aggregates? Within.
-Is there complete, unconditional autonomous control of any of the aggregates? As you said, no.
-Is there complete, unconditional autonomous control of "functional choice", cetanā, manasikāra, sammāvāyāma,sammappadhānā, etc?

If there is complete, unconditional autonomous control of "functional choice", etc, which is part of the aggregates (primarily saṅkhāra khandha), then why isn't there complete, unconditional autonomous control of the aggregates?

The aggregates (primarily saṅkhāra khandha) include "functional choice", cetanā, manasikāra, sammāvāyāma,sammappadhānā, etc.

So all the sutta quotes should be view with above in mind.

With metta,

Alex
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Alex123
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Re: Did the Buddha teach strict determinism?

Post by Alex123 »

Goofaholix wrote:
Alex123 wrote:
Goofaholix wrote: Again, it is knowledge that liberates.
If it were knowledge that liberates the Universities would be full of Arahants, it's wisdom that liberates, and wisdom goes beyond the digesting and regurgitating knowledge or scripture.
Wisdom (paññā) has to develop enough, and to cut the fetters. Mere lip reciting isn't wisdom.
Last edited by Alex123 on Sat Nov 20, 2010 1:46 am, edited 2 times in total.
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retrofuturist
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Re: Did the Buddha teach that we have choice?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Alex,
Alex123 wrote:Is "functional choice" within or outside of aggregates? Within.
So you acknowledge "functional choice" then?

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Alex123
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Re: Did the Buddha teach that we have choice?

Post by Alex123 »

Hi Retro,
retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Alex,
Alex123 wrote:Is "functional choice" within or outside of aggregates? Within.
So you acknowledge "functional choice" then?

Metta,
Retro. :)

I am just taking Geoff's terminology and asking him. In any case, every thing that arises has a "function" to do. So choice vs functional choice may not differ in essence (conditionality). I do wonder what Geoff has precisely meant by functional choice.


"Functional choice" as bunch of thoughts does arise. But it is fully conditioned, and so is its deliberations and outcome. It is conditioned like a leaf being blown by the wind, to use Tilt's expression. There is no Self that owns anything, include "functional choice".

With metta,

Alex
alan
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Re: Did the Buddha teach that we have choice?

Post by alan »

Alex,
Don't get your motivation for assuming such an extreme position. Obnoxious contrarianism?

Instead I'll just ask: what good comes from assuming your view?
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Alex123
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Re: Did the Buddha teach that we have choice?

Post by Alex123 »

alan wrote:Alex,
Don't get your motivation for assuming such an extreme position. Obnoxious contrarianism?

Instead I'll just ask: what good comes from assuming your view?
For Right View.


All my past failures are not "I", not "mine", and "I" couldn't do anything better. What has happened, has happened the only possible way it ever could possibly occur. No need to be upset.

With metta,

Alex
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retrofuturist
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Re: Did the Buddha teach that we have choice?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
Alex123 wrote:What has happened, has happened the only possible way it ever could possibly occur.
Fatalism - the spiritual life is over.
Alex123 wrote:All my past failures are not "I", not "mine", and "I" couldn't do anything better.
... and all responsibility for past actions is absolved.

Image

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Did the Buddha teach that we have choice?

Post by Hoo »

Well said, Geoff :goodpost: One needs to get past freshman and sophomore philosophy to see what the Buddha discovered - and the forest of views, the thicket of views, that don't lead to the end of suffering. IMHO, it doesn't matter if there is ultimately "free will, freedom of choice" or not. Neither is a "thing" of inherent existence. At best they are concepts, fabricated and composite.

IMHO, it's a matter of asking the wrong question and applying the wrong criteria. Does one ask what is the origin of Cherry Tarts? What is the truth of Cherry Tarts? I think all of us can see that Cherry Tarts have essentially nothing to do with what the Buddha taught.

To this, I can picture the Buddha saying, "Look at the recipe. Try it, see if it works, keep it if it does, discard it if it doesn't." (Poorly paraphrased from the advice to the Kalamas)

I can't picture him saying, "There is only one recipe for Cherry Tart. There is only this, all else is wrong." (Canki Sutta for reference) IMO, the question is not "What is the only right way?" It is more like, "how does it work for you" because there is more than one way to go at it." IMHO, this implies that I have choice.

In my brief exposure, Buddhism is "learn and do" more than learn and debate. It's useful to swap ideas and look at the interpretations but for me, at least, it then comes down to "what difference does this make to my practice or my snail's pace toward liberation."

Can I ever truly know the ultimate answers, or will I end up taking refuge in the words of others or just my own preferences/views? "Did I really just solve what hasn't been resolved in 2,500 to 4,000 years of philosophical debate?" It can be a humbling reality check when I'm engaged in debate. On my beter days I choose not to pick it up. On other days I set it back down as not conducive to the goal.

I'm not good at this, mind you. I only share this thought because it has helped me on the path. May it be of benefit to others, too.

With Metta,
Hoo
alan
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Re: Did the Buddha teach that we have choice?

Post by alan »

Alex,
Please explain the relationship between your position and Right View. Using Suttas, not experiential examples.
It is obvious you haven't understood some very basic teachings--Buddha railed against determinists, in straight language, many times.
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Alex123
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Re: Did the Buddha teach that we have choice?

Post by Alex123 »

Hi Alan, all,
alan wrote:Alex,
Please explain the relationship between your position and Right View. Using Suttas, not experiential examples.
It is obvious you haven't understood some very basic teachings--Buddha railed against determinists, in straight language, many times.
By seeing the drawbacks of the aggregates, one more and more becomes dispassionate toward them, and craving fades.
Seeing thus[alex: anicca-dukkha-anatta], Sona, the instructed noble disciple becomes disenchanted with form, disenchanted with feeling, disenchanted with perception, disenchanted with volitional constructions, disenchanted with consciousness. Being disenchanted, he becomes dispassionate. Through dispassion (his mind) is liberated. When it is liberated there comes the knowledge: ‘It’s liberated.’ He understands: ‘Destroyed is birth, the holy life has been lived, what
had to be done has been done, there is no more for this world.’”
SN22.49 (7) Sona (1) - Ven BB Transl.

Bhikkhus, a bhikkhu sees as impermanent form which is actually impermanent: that is his right view. Seeing rightly, he becomes disenchanted. With the destruction of delight comes the destruction of lust; with the destruction of lust comes the destruction of delight. With the destruction of delight and lust the mind is liberated and is said to be well liberated. [same for other aggregates]
SN22.51 (9) Destruction of Delight (1) - Ven BB Transl.

Here, Aggivessana, my disciples see whatever matter, in the past, future or present, internal or external, coarse or fine, unexalted or exalted, far or near, all that matter is not mine. I'm not that, it is not my self. This is seen with right wisdom, as it really is. Whatever feelings, whatever perceptions, whatever determinations, whatever consciousness, in the past, future or present, internal or external, coarse or fine, un -exalted or exalted, far or near, all consciousness is not mine. I'm not that, it is not my self. This is seen with right wisdom as it really is. Aggivessana, with this much, my disciples have done the work in my dispensation, followed the advice, dispelling doubts have become confident not relying on a teacher abide.
[Alex: then path to Arhatship]
Here, Aggivessana, whatever matter[alex: and other 4 aggregates], in the past, future or present, internal or external, coarse or fine, unexalted or exalted, far or near, all matter is not mine. I'm not that, it is not my self, This should be seen with right wisdom, as it really is, and the mind released without holdings.
Aggivessana, when this much is done the bhikkhu is perfect with desires destroyed, the holy life lived, what should be done, done, the weight put down, come to the highest good, the desires `to be' destroyed, and rightly knowing is released. Aggivessana, the mind of the bhãkkhu so released is endowed with three nobilities: The nobility of vision, the nobility of method, and the nobility of release.
http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/ ... ta-e1.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
In MN35 the not-self is explicitly taught as lack of being able to wield power over aggregates. So by talking about strict conditionality, no free will, and choice being "like leaf blown by the wind" - we are having a great Dhamma discussion about Not-Self. Discussion is very important and one of the causes for wisdom to arise. Some people have achieved maggaphala during the Dhamma discussions due to considering and contemplating these things.


With metta,

Alex
alan
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Re: Did the Buddha teach that we have choice?

Post by alan »

I'm afraid that Great Dhamma Discussion is going on only in your mind, and that you are misreading the texts you cited.
Your position is extreme; you have shown no awareness of that. You have ignored several intelligent, well meaning posts by DW members I've come to respect. I see no reason to continue discussing this or any other matter with you.
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Re: Did the Buddha teach that we have choice?

Post by octathlon »

Excerpt from "Egolessness (Anattaa)" by Nyanatiloka Mahathera:
The Buddha is, in every respect, a teacher at the golden mean, ethically as well as philosophically. From the ethical standpoint, for example, the Buddha rejects two extremes: the way of sensual pleasures and the way of self-torture. From the philosophical standpoint he rejects eternity, as well as temporariness of an ego entity. Just so he rejects belief in an absolute identity and an absolute otherness of the various stages of the process of existence. He rejects the determinism, as well as the belief in chance. He rejects the belief in absolute existence and absolute non-existence; likewise in freedom of will, as well as in unfreedom of will.

All these things will become clear to one who understands the egolessness and conditioned nature of all phenomena of existence. On the understanding of these two truths depends the understanding of the entire doctrine of the Buddha. Hence the understanding and final penetration of the egolessness and conditionedness of all phenomena of existence are the necessary foundation to the realization of the noble eightfold path leading to deliverance from all vanity and misery, namely: right understanding, right thought, right speech, right bodily action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, and right concentration of mind. Only this golden middle path, based on these two kinds of right understanding, namely of "egolessness and conditionedness," can alleviate and destroy these vain illusions of "self" and craving, which are the root-causes of all war and bloodshed in the world. But without these two kinds of understanding there is no realization of the holy and peaceful goal pointed out by the Buddha.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... golessness" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Alex123
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Re: Did the Buddha teach that we have choice?

Post by Alex123 »

octathlon wrote:Excerpt from "Egolessness (Anattaa)" by Nyanatiloka Mahathera:

That is view of the Venerable. I prefer the suttas, not someone's opinion of what Buddha has taught. Buddha taught strict conditionality and Anatta. Things happen due to specific causes, and not randomly. If there is no something unconditioned that can influence this cause-effect stream, then there is no possibility of things happening other than the way that they are supposed to happen. A leaf being blown by the wind has no choice where to fly. A compatibilist idea of free will requires an Agent in order to work. Anatta + strict conditionality = more of hard-determinism with the possibility to become Awakened if the right causes are "inserted".


There are but these two alternatives. Either choice is dependent on causes, or choice is not dependent on causes. If choice is dependent on causes, then it is like a leaf being blown by the wind, the causes decide the choice and its outcome. If the choice is not dependent on causes, then it appears randomly, by chance. But chance alone does not constitute freedom of choice and clearly excludes control of what choice occurs, as it "just happens out of blue sky". Either choice is fully determined, or it "just appears out of blue sky". In none of these two options there is any control or "personal agency" to influence the choice and its outcome.


With metta,

Alex
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Re: Did the Buddha teach that we have choice?

Post by tiltbillings »

Alex123 wrote: Buddha taught strict conditionality and Anatta.
In your opinion.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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