something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Nyana
Posts: 2233
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:56 am

Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Post by Nyana »

5heaps wrote:i am suggesting that you should present your position in a graded manner that makes sense and is of use to ppl.
The Pāḷi dhamma is a complete system of gradual training. It doesn't need to be supplemented by Sarvāstivāda, Yogācāra, or Mādhyamaka tenets.

All the best,

Geoff
alan
Posts: 3111
Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:14 am
Location: Miramar beach, Fl.

Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Post by alan »

Nana;
Or you could think about your posts, and use words that the audience might understand.
A basic question is this: to whom am I talking? Do they understand what I'm saying?
If you don't craft responses to the audience, then what are you doing?
User avatar
Ben
Posts: 18438
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:49 am
Location: kanamaluka

Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Post by Ben »

Ñāṇa wrote:
5heaps wrote:i am suggesting that you should present your position in a graded manner that makes sense and is of use to ppl.
The Pāḷi dhamma is a complete system of gradual training. It doesn't need to be supplemented by Sarvāstivāda, Yogācāra, or Mādhyamaka tenets.
Well said, Geoff!
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
5heaps
Posts: 334
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2009 12:19 am

Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Post by 5heaps »

tiltbillings wrote:
5heaps wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Ah, so you plainly expose your bias.
i am suggesting that you should present your position in a graded manner that makes sense and is of use to ppl. . . . another cool part of studying the indian tenet system presented by ppl like Bhavaviveka . . . .
Again, you expose you bias annd your willing ignorance. You obviously have no real interest in the Theravada as it understands itself or as Theravadins talk about it, so why are you here?
actually im very interested in how you answer what Buddhagosha says, which is why ive addressed the argument to you several times. its true that i thought Theravada in general posited momentariness in the sense of abiding characteristic natures. its what most of the other Theravadins here believe also. do you say also to them, 'why are you here'?

Theravada accepts characteristic natures? they make up functioning dharmas? if you dont accept that a characteristic nature must abide in order to function, this requires explanation since you contradict Buddhagosha, Vasubhandu, Dharmakirti, etc. if you think that an abiding characteristic nature implies being unchanging then i will repeat the reasoning to prove that it doesnt
Ñāṇa wrote:It doesn't need to be supplemented by Sarvāstivāda, Yogācāra, or Mādhyamaka tenets.
because these are wrong or because these are already subsumed in the Pali tradition? or something else?
A Japanese man has been arrested on suspicion of writing a computer virus that destroys and replaces files on a victim PC with manga images of squid, octopuses and sea urchins. Masato Nakatsuji, 27, of Izumisano, Osaka Prefecture, was quoted as telling police: "I wanted to see how much my computer programming skills had improved since the last time I was arrested."
Nyana
Posts: 2233
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:56 am

Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Post by Nyana »

alan wrote:Nana;
Or you could think about your posts, and use words that the audience might understand.
A basic question is this: to whom am I talking? Do they understand what I'm saying?
If you don't craft responses to the audience, then what are you doing?
Point taken. But it does depend on whom I'm replying to, and the context of the discussion at hand. When engaging in these types of discussions I don't see much point in breaking things down for people who haven't trained in the stuff that 5heaps (for example) is talking about. If anyone is interested in finding out more, there is Google.

All the best,

Geoff
Last edited by Nyana on Mon Nov 15, 2010 1:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Nyana
Posts: 2233
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:56 am

Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Post by Nyana »

5heaps wrote:
Ñāṇa wrote:It doesn't need to be supplemented by Sarvāstivāda, Yogācāra, or Mādhyamaka tenets.
because these are wrong or because these are already subsumed in the Pali tradition? or something else?
Because the Pāḷi Tipiṭaka is a complete system of gradual training.

All the best,

Geoff
User avatar
Prasadachitta
Posts: 974
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 6:52 am
Location: San Francisco (The Mission) Ca USA
Contact:

Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Post by Prasadachitta »

5heaps wrote:
gabrielbranbury wrote:Obviously "No ultimately existent ontological realities" is an ontological claim which is unnecessary and cannot be established.
thats not true even if pretend that 1) we have no ignorance 2) our ignorance does not pertain to objects and other people

this is because we are part of the world and so are our minds. dharma paths are an ontological discovery about oneself. if there even is a soteriology aspect, it may be the feeling of nirvana or something meaningless like that. i say meaningless because it would already fall under the classifications of feelings, mental factors, etc.
Im not certain what you are saying is not true. However, I dont think it is necessary for me to establish an unchanging interval in order to learn about conditions, how they they arise, how they persist and how they pass away. Whenever I look for an unchanging object I find a changing experience and whenever I look for a person to relate to I find only a changing relationship. This conveys to me a frightening degree of personal responsibility. Not wanting to accept this responsibility is the main obstacle to practice for me.


Take Care

Gabe
"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Post by tiltbillings »

5heaps wrote:actually im very interested in how you answer what Buddhagosha says, which is why ive addressed the argument to you several times. its true that i thought Theravada in general posited momentariness in the sense of abiding characteristic natures. its what most of the other Theravadins here believe also. do you say also to them, 'why are you here'?
You cannot accurately say that most Theravadins here believe in the sort of momentariness and svabhava notion you are always pushing. You were not even aware of what Buddhaghosa said until it was pointed out to you. You have exposed the depth of your tenet system bias and you have repeatedly made no attempt at trying to understand what Ñāṇa or I have been saying, insisting that tenet system is the way to read the Theravada and the Pali texts. Why are you here?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
alan
Posts: 3111
Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:14 am
Location: Miramar beach, Fl.

Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Post by alan »

Smackdown.
Individual
Posts: 1970
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 2:19 am

Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Post by Individual »

Ñāṇa wrote:
5heaps wrote:
Ñāṇa wrote:It doesn't need to be supplemented by Sarvāstivāda, Yogācāra, or Mādhyamaka tenets.
because these are wrong or because these are already subsumed in the Pali tradition? or something else?
Because the Pāḷi Tipiṭaka is a complete system of gradual training.

All the best,

Geoff
Yes, but for clarification, it needs commentaries, sub-commentaries, and sub-sub-sub-sub-commentaries.
The best things in life aren't things.

The Diamond Sutra
alan
Posts: 3111
Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:14 am
Location: Miramar beach, Fl.

Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Post by alan »

Based on what?
Individual
Posts: 1970
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 2:19 am

Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Post by Individual »

Ignorance :D
The best things in life aren't things.

The Diamond Sutra
alan
Posts: 3111
Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:14 am
Location: Miramar beach, Fl.

Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Post by alan »

That is not an answer.
alan
Posts: 3111
Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:14 am
Location: Miramar beach, Fl.

Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Post by alan »

Or, if you really consider it an answer, it is extremely incorrect. To the point of absurdity.
Individual
Posts: 1970
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 2:19 am

Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Post by Individual »

alan wrote:Or, if you really consider it an answer, it is extremely incorrect. To the point of absurdity.
If you say so, it would seem so. If you did not say so, it would not seem to be.

What's absurd is that my words didn't actually have any explicit meaning, but you derived a particular meaning from them. How'd you do that and where did that meaning come from, when it was not made explicit?

I said, "Ignorance."

This could mean a variety of things:
1. Ignorance (within society as a whole) is constantly churning out new forms of wrong view and we need constant commentaries to re-clarify things. Because with each particular publication, it opens the door for new ways in which people can misunderstand things. Texts do not come pre-packaged with interpretations (it's the nature of language), so a commentary is sort of an interpretive guide. With each commentary, one could misunderstand it, hence a sub-commentary. But even the sub-commentary could be misunderstood and so on. In truth, it comes down to attaining ultimate knowledge through wisdom born of mindfulness and concentration. Casual pondering is not true wisdom.

2. All actions -- even those by Buddhist monks or Buddhas and Arahants -- take place within the context of Samsara. What superficially appear to be a Buddha's actions, though, are in fact entirely independent of kamma-vipaka. And so, for the perception of an ordinary person of only moderate wisdom, all things, including Buddhist texts, are manifestations of sankharas and according to Dependent Origination, all sankharas are rooted in ignorance. This means that even the Buddha's own teachings could be said to be conditioned by ignorance, a paradoxical statement consistent with the Diamond Sutra's claim that the Buddha never taught anything. But this is not an idea distinct to Mahayana, because you'll find similar ideas written by Nanananda Bhikkhu in Concept And Reality, In Early Buddhist Thought about the Buddha being silent even when he speaks. Again, in truth it comes down to attaining ultimate knowledge through wisdom born of mindfulness and concentration. Casual pondering is not true wisdom.

3. That I personally (being a Mahayanist and a Zen Buddhist) think the commentaries are quite stupid. They might be useful to some people, but they aren't entirely objective or factual, and in some cases are downright nonsensical. Yet again, in truth it comes down to attaining ultimate knowledge through wisdom born of mindfulness and concentration. Casual pondering is not true wisdom.

Out of these three possibilities, you picked one. Right? Or perhaps it isn't one of these three and it's another understanding entirely. How'd you do that and why?

(No need to answer that. It's rhetorical. Don't look at me. Look at your self, please! :))
The best things in life aren't things.

The Diamond Sutra
Post Reply