something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

[Mkoll]

One must not make the mistake to forget that time itself is derived from the experience of change. It is not the other way round...

Very good observation and something that can be forgotten easily in our modern world where everything is on a schedule.

[mikenz66]

It seems to me that Nanavira's objections are based on his particular philosophical views. Would that be a correct interpretation?


Mike

[Alex123]

It seems to me that Nanavira's objections are based on his particular philosophical views. Would that be a correct interpretation?


Mike

They are based on the suttas and logic. Sutta after sutta talks about anicca, but anicca is often on a scale of 100-120 years or even more. 100-120 years is considered to be short compared to geological timespans mentioned in the suttas.

[acinteyyo]

It seems to me that Nanavira's objections are based on his particular philosophical views. Would that be a correct interpretation?


Mike

Nanavira wrote a letter to the publisher of his "Notes on Dhamma" where he described his book as being:

...perhaps best regarded as a philosophical commentary on the essential teachings of the Pali Suttas...

His objections are based on his own examination and interpretation of the Pali Suttas. To get a full picture of the validity or invalidity of his arguments one needs to read his book carefully trying to understand his points and compare it to the Pali Suttas and the classical interpretations and most importantly apply it to the "abyss of ones own personal existence".

Jumping to conclusions about Nanaviras objections or philosophical views from bits and pieces is inappropriate IMO. He describes his position carefully and in detail.
If one wants to get an adequate understanding of his position, one needs to make oneself familiar with his writings.
Skipping the effort to familiarize oneself thoroughly with his writings will lead to an incomplete understanding.

best wishes, acinteyyo

[tiltbillings]

It seems to me that Nanavira's objections are based on his particular philosophical views. Would that be a correct interpretation?


Mike

They are based on the suttas and logic. Sutta after sutta talks about anicca, but anicca is often on a scale of 100-120 years or even more. 100-120 years is considered to be short compared to geological timespans mentioned in the suttas.

What are you talking about ?

[Alex123]

It seems to me that Nanavira's objections are based on his particular philosophical views. Would that be a correct interpretation?


Mike

They are based on the suttas and logic. Sutta after sutta talks about anicca, but anicca is often on a scale of 100-120 years or even more. 100-120 years is considered to be short compared to geological timespans mentioned in the suttas.

What are you talking about ?

That anicca in the suttas is not meant to be taken as khanika.

[tiltbillings]

That anicca in the suttas is not meant to be taken as khanika.

Anicca is on a time scale of 100-120 years? What are you talking about?

[Alex123]

Tilt,

Now there comes a time, friends, when the external liquid property is provoked and washes away village, town, city, district, & country. There comes a time when the water in the great ocean drops down one hundred leagues, two hundred... three hundred... four hundred... five hundred... six hundred... seven hundred leagues. There comes a time when the water in the great ocean stands seven palm-trees deep, six... five... four... three... two palm-trees deep, one palm-tree deep. There comes a time when the water in the great ocean stands seven fathoms deep, six... five... four... three... two fathoms deep, one fathom deep. There comes a time when the water in the great ocean stands half a fathom deep, hip-deep, knee-deep, ankle deep. There comes a time when the water in the great ocean is not even the depth of the first joint of a finger.

"So when even in the external liquid property — so vast — inconstancy will be discerned, destructibility will be discerned, a tendency to decay will be discerned, changeability will be discerned, then what in this short-lasting body, sustained by clinging, is 'I' or 'mine' or 'what I am'? It has here only a 'no.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Anicca here refers to geological timespans (how long will it take for ocean to dry up?).

[mikenz66]

Skipping the effort to familiarize oneself thoroughly with his writings will lead to an incomplete understanding.

Probably true, and why I've never figured out what he's really trying to get at.

But, of course, one can't spend time on every possible interpretation...


Mike

[Alex123]

But, of course, one can't spend time on every possible interpretation...

Maybe in some cases one shouldn't interpret. See my quote on timescales that anicca involves.

[tiltbillings]

Anicca here refers to geological timespans (how long will it take for ocean to dry up?).

And what does that have to do with liberation? And what does that have to do with some "thing" enduring supposedly unchanged for some interval or other?

[Alex123]

And what does that have to do with liberation?

Where did I talk about liberation? I was talking about that anicca isn't simply khanika.

And what does that have to do with some "thing" enduring supposedly unchanged for some interval or other?

For something to change, it has to endure in order to change.

[acinteyyo]

Skipping the effort to familiarize oneself thoroughly with his writings will lead to an incomplete understanding.

Probably true, and why I've never figured out what he's really trying to get at.

But, of course, one can't spend time on every possible interpretation...


Mike

Of course, one can't spend time on every possible interpretation.
What he's trying to get at in his own words:

The principal aim of these Notes on Dhamma is to point out certain current misinterpretations, mostly traditional, of the Pali Suttas, and to offer in their place something certainly less easy but perhaps also less inadequate. These Notes assume, therefore, that the reader is (or is prepared to become) familiar with the original texts, and in Pali (for even the most competent translations sacrifice some essential accuracy to style, and the rest are seriously misleading). They assume, also, that the reader's sole interest in the Pali Suttas is a concern for his own welfare. The reader is presumed to be subjectively engaged with an anxious problem, the problem of his existence, with is also the problem of his suffering. There is therefore nothing in these pages to interest the professional scholar, for whom the question of personal existence does not arise; for the scholar's whole concern is to eliminate or ignore the individual point of view in an effort to establish the objective truth - a would-be impersonal synthesis of public facts. The scholar's essentially horizontal view of things, seeking connections in space and time, and his historical approach to the texts, disqualify him from any possibility of understanding a Dhamma that the Buddha himself has called akalika, "timless". Only in a vertical view, straight down into the abyss of his own personal existence, is a man capable of apprehending the perilous insecurity of his situation; and only a man who does apprehend this is prepared to listen to the Buddha's Teaching.
[...]
This Note will take for granted first, that the reader is acquainted with this traditional interpretation [of paticcasamupadda], and secondly, that he is dissatisfied with it. It is not therefore proposed to enter into a detailed discussion of this interpretation, but rather to indicate briefly that dissatisfaction with it is not unjustified, and then to outline what may perhaps be found to be a more satisfactory approach.

things in brackets [] added

best wishes, acinteyyo

[SamKR]

Isn't the point of anicca "arising and ceasing" of things? Does the duration or timespan (geological or khanika) of things actually matter?

[Alex123]

Isn't the point of anicca "arising and ceasing" of things? Does the duration or timespan (geological or khanika) of things actually matter?

What kind of perception works to develop dispassion the most appropriate for you?