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Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Prasadachitta
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Post by Prasadachitta »

tiltbillings wrote:
gabrielbranbury wrote:"it has a logic that one can see for oneself without having to believe others."

Basically, if the Dhamma is conveyed to an individual in such a way as to appear to that person as something totally illogical and therefore perceived as something that person cannot act upon,
To "act upon" it would require some degree of belief.

The more logical something appears to me the more likley I am to believe it.
"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332
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bodom
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Re: Signature

Post by bodom »

gabrielbranbury wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
gabrielbranbury wrote:"it has a logic that one can see for oneself without having to believe others."

Basically, if the Dhamma is conveyed to an individual in such a way as to appear to that person as something totally illogical and therefore perceived as something that person cannot act upon,
To "act upon" it would require some degree of belief.

The more logical something appears to me the more likley I am to believe it.
So in this case, Kalamas, don't go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture...


Just saying...

:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
Hoo
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Re: Signature

Post by Hoo »

Annapurna wrote:
I wonder lately if I am benefitting from the back and forth in forums.
Generally speaking, I do benefit, but there is a price to be paid sometimes, IMHO. I find that forums are not a collection of role models. The down side of that is that I get to read periodic posts that make me wonder just where the Buddha is in all that. That actually helps remind me not get deep into "me and mine." Seeing someone else do it serves as a good reminder of just how often I do it, too. :toilet:

The up side, for me, is that there are sometimes some real gems that are posted. Sometimes they answer a question that I didn't know I even had. Sometimes they point the way to something I've been looking for. Sometimes they post the source in Sutta, which I really appreciate!

Probably the biggest benefit, though, is how it shows that I have little equanimity in my practice. Why does a topic matter so much that my passion rises? Whether in agreement or disagreement, when was "I" elected to be a judge of what's right or wrong? Why do I pick up a particular topic, for the benefit of the other or to benefit myself? And if it's "for the other person," is the payoff really that I get one of the worldly concerns?

The price I pay is getting discouraged. I look at some of the alleged old-timers and expect to see a better performing version than I am. I look at those not so old-time and wonder why all of them are such a mixed bag of behavior. It's just more of "I/me/mine" that's operating, of course, but I really wish that all electronic Buddhists were wonderful, kind, practicing the Brahmaviharas, etc. On my better days I understand that everyone is just a human trapped in Samsara, and even the Buddhists are various degrees of "accomplished." So I need to quit evaluating them and wondering where the Buddha is in their behavior. It's when "my expectations for Buddhists" aren't being met that I get discouraged - pretty good example of creating my own suffering - huh? At least I sometimes catch it now and can ask myself the same question, " Where is the Buddha in what I am doing right now?"

Retreat, teachers and study seem to be the common tools for making headway and that's what I'm about to do again. There's nothing within hours in the way of teachers and retreats so I engineer my own from time to time. I become more reclusive and study Sutta more, pick up my dropped habits of sitting and mindful meditation, etc. The other thing I do is drop way off from forum reading because I find that my information needs are better met in Sutta, especially when I'm in retreat mode.

I don't know if you will find my rambling useful or not, Anna. It's just what came to mind when I read your post and I thought I'd share it with you.

With Metta,
Hoo
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Prasadachitta
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Post by Prasadachitta »

So in this case, Kalamas, don't go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture...

Just saying...

:anjali:


Logical conjecture is still a provisionally useful tool. Also We normal folk cant help but do it anyway. Here I think the Buddha is just asking us to add some extra helpful tools like the discernment of effects and the consulting of wise opinion.
"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332
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tiltbillings
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Post by tiltbillings »

bodom wrote:
So in this case, Kalamas, don't go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture...


Just saying...
Why would you believe that?


"So, as I said, Kalamas: 'Don't go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, "This contemplative is our teacher." When you know for yourselves that, "These qualities are skillful; these qualities are blameless; these qualities are praised by the wise; these qualities, when adopted & carried out, lead to welfare & to happiness" — then you should enter & remain in them.' Thus was it said. And in reference to this was it said.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Prasadachitta
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Post by Prasadachitta »

These are the important constituents of a foundation.
My feeling is that a "foundation" is that teaching which sets off the progressively effective practice of the individual who hears it. Since paradigms of logic differ "Foundations" will differ. However even though they differ they must express the contingency of phenomena. Otherwise progressive efficacy becomes limited by our logical paradigm. :cookoo:

Gabe
"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332
chownah
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Re: Signature

Post by chownah »

tiltbillings wrote:The following is a signature of one of our fellow members:
To call something a foundation of the Buddhist Teachings is only correct if firstly, it is a principle which aims at the extinction of Dukkha and, secondly, it has a logic that one can see for oneself without having to believe others. These are the important constituents of a foundation.

Aj. Buddhadasa
It would seem that having to initially believe in what some other person said is unavoidable.
Seems to me that sometimes when someone says something a thought arises and we might then place some belief or faith in that thought.
A mundane example: When in college and not having enough money to finish my degree I was discussing my options with a friend and in the process of this discussion my friend off handedly said, "its too bad that money has to come into it at all"....this casual remark rang true to me that I need not let money be so important so I went out and took out a loan (which previously I really did not want to do) and thus did not let money worries rule a decision about my future....but....my friend had not intended to send that message to me.....It is my view that I did not have to initially believe in what another had said.....what I did believe in was the idea which arose in me and had very little to do with what my friend had said.
chownah
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