the great rebirth debate

An open and inclusive investigation into Buddhism and spiritual cultivation

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Thu Jun 11, 2009 11:05 am

Hey Ben


I dont see rebirth as being part of Buddhadhamma so what i wrote on that forum was correct (in line with my own view) that there is no rebirth pm in the buddhas teachings



Any question about rebirth after death im agnostic towards because i do not know either way atm, maybe so maybe not (although as i said i lean slightly towards no than yes)


I think confusion arises due to how i personally take rebirth. To me questions about rebirth after death etc are the same as questions about gods and heaven etc, outside buddhadhamma for me. Buddhadhamma and rebirth are seperate "things" in my view


Its not in the buddhadhamma for me (4nt, NEFP). As to if such a thing occurs then i dont know

Does that help?

Metta
Open your mind and see, open your mind and rise. Shine the light of wisdom and see, don't wait till the end of time.
User avatar
clw_uk
 
Posts: 3284
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales, United Kingdom

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Thu Jun 11, 2009 11:11 am

Guy wrote:
clw_uk wrote:I dont do that, as i said i have an agnostic attitude. However based on probability my current thinking is leaning more towards a no than a yes (only slightly however)


Where are you getting these probabilities from?



The main one is i dont really see what can continue
Open your mind and see, open your mind and rise. Shine the light of wisdom and see, don't wait till the end of time.
User avatar
clw_uk
 
Posts: 3284
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales, United Kingdom

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Ngawang Drolma. » Thu Jun 11, 2009 4:11 pm

Hi all,

I have two small points I would like to make. Please bear in mind that this is Laura's_personal_interpretation. Feedback is welcomed.

First, for those who take exception to the path and its fruit being the same, how would you distinguish the path from its fruit? In theory, sure, it could be defined. But in real practice, I think it's indistinguishable.

**Edited to delete paragraph two. I think my comments on birth vs. rebirth are irrelevant and out of place. Sorry about that.

Kindly,
Laura
Last edited by Ngawang Drolma. on Thu Jun 11, 2009 5:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
Ngawang Drolma.
 
Posts: 805
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 7:38 pm

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Dhammanando » Thu Jun 11, 2009 5:24 pm

Hi Laura,

Ngawang Drolma wrote:First, for those who take exception to the path and its fruit being the same, how would you distinguish the path from its fruit?


I think it's really those who assert that the two things are one who have some explaining to do.

In the Abhidhamma the terms 'path' and 'fruition' refer to two separate moments of consciousness. The path-consciousness is a kamma and the fruition-consciousness is its vipaka. Since the fruition-consciousness arises after the path-consciousness has passed away (i.e., it's not a case of one consciousness changing into another) they are properly counted as two, not one. The only sense I can see in which they might be regarded as one is that they both take Nibbana as their object.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
    ...and this thought arose in the mind of the Blessed One:
    “Who lives without reverence lives miserably.”
    Uruvela Sutta, A.ii.20

    It were endless to dispute upon everything that is disputable.
    — William Penn Some Fruits of Solitude,
User avatar
Dhammanando
 
Posts: 1261
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:44 pm
Location: Wat Pa Mieng Khun Pang, Chiang Mai

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Ngawang Drolma. » Thu Jun 11, 2009 5:56 pm

Hi Dhammanando Bhikkhu,

What if I said that I agree that the two are specific and different by definition, but indistinguishable in experience?
Like in the same way that it's difficult to distinguish between karmic fruit and conditions in practice.

Kindly,
Laura
User avatar
Ngawang Drolma.
 
Posts: 805
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 7:38 pm

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Dhammanando » Thu Jun 11, 2009 6:30 pm

Hi Laura,

Ngawang Drolma wrote:What if I said that I agree that the two are specific and different by definition, but indistinguishable in experience?


It is inconceivable that the sort of person in whom the path and fruition consciousnesses arise would be unable to distinguish them. With path and fruition consciousnesses we are not talking about any ordinary person, but about one in whom the faculties of sati and paññā have been developed to the level of strong insight and who is on the threshold of the ariyan plane.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
    ...and this thought arose in the mind of the Blessed One:
    “Who lives without reverence lives miserably.”
    Uruvela Sutta, A.ii.20

    It were endless to dispute upon everything that is disputable.
    — William Penn Some Fruits of Solitude,
User avatar
Dhammanando
 
Posts: 1261
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:44 pm
Location: Wat Pa Mieng Khun Pang, Chiang Mai

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Jun 11, 2009 8:51 pm

I dont see rebirth as being part of Buddhadhamma so what i wrote on that forum was correct (in line with my own view) that there is no rebirth pm in the buddhas teachings


Which is fine, if you identify it as your own view, but to say that there is no rebirth in Buddhism without that qualification is to not safe guard the truth given that traditionaly that is not the case.

Also, you claim that there is no rebirth in Buddhism is not supported by the teachings, given how much of the teachings you have simply ignored.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 18372
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Location: Turtle Island

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Ngawang Drolma. » Thu Jun 11, 2009 9:17 pm

Dhammanando wrote:Hi Laura,

Ngawang Drolma wrote:What if I said that I agree that the two are specific and different by definition, but indistinguishable in experience?


It is inconceivable that the sort of person in whom the path and fruition consciousnesses arise would be unable to distinguish them. With path and fruition consciousnesses we are not talking about any ordinary person, but about one in whom the faculties of sati and paññā have been developed to the level of strong insight and who is on the threshold of the ariyan plane.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu


I see, thanks very much.

Kindly,
Laura
User avatar
Ngawang Drolma.
 
Posts: 805
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 7:38 pm

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Thu Jun 11, 2009 10:01 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
I dont see rebirth as being part of Buddhadhamma so what i wrote on that forum was correct (in line with my own view) that there is no rebirth pm in the buddhas teachings


Which is fine, if you identify it as your own view, but to say that there is no rebirth in Buddhism without that qualification is to not safe guard the truth given that traditionaly that is not the case.



yes it is my view of buddhadhamma however im not the only one, there are many other lay buddhists who are of the same opinion as well as monks. Its not the case that i have made something up or tailored buddhadhamma to suite me, my understanding comes from what i have learnt from the texts, exp, advice (from people who hold rebirth and those who dont) and Ajhans. From what i have learnt rebirth isnt in the Buddhadhamma


Also, you claim that there is no rebirth in Buddhism is not supported by the teachings, given how much of the teachings you have simply ignored


This has been discussed at great length in this thread already so i wont try to support my view again

Metta
Open your mind and see, open your mind and rise. Shine the light of wisdom and see, don't wait till the end of time.
User avatar
clw_uk
 
Posts: 3284
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales, United Kingdom

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Ben » Thu Jun 11, 2009 11:05 pm

clw_uk wrote:
Also, you claim that there is no rebirth in Buddhism is not supported by the teachings, given how much of the teachings you have simply ignored


This has been discussed at great length in this thread already so i wont try to support my view again

Metta


Craig, I don't think I have ever seen you support your claim with evidence taken directly from the Tipitaka. Since you are claiming that rebirth does not exist within the Buddhadhamma, can you provide any evidence that the Buddha or his chief disciples refuted post-mortem rebirth?
Kind regards

Ben
"Only those who take to meditation with good intentions can be assured of success. With the development of the purity and the power of the mind backed by the insight into the ultimate truth of nature, one might be able to do a lot of things in the right direction for the benefit of mankind."

Sayagyi U Ba Khin


Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief
UNHCR Syria Emergency Relief AppealTyphoon Haiyan Relief AppealKiva: (person to person micro-finance)

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com
User avatar
Ben
Site Admin
 
Posts: 15793
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:49 am
Location: Land of the sleeping gods

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jun 12, 2009 2:34 am

clw_uk wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
I dont see rebirth as being part of Buddhadhamma so what i wrote on that forum was correct (in line with my own view) that there is no rebirth pm in the buddhas teachings


Which is fine, if you identify it as your own view, but to say that there is no rebirth in Buddhism without that qualification is to not safe guard the truth given that traditionally that is not the case.



yes it is my view of buddhadhamma however im not the only one, there are many other lay buddhists who are of the same opinion as well as monks. Its not the case that i have made something up or tailored buddhadhamma to suite me, my understanding comes from what i have learnt from the texts, exp, advice (from people who hold rebirth and those who dont) and Ajhans. From what i have learnt rebirth isnt in the Buddhadhamma


That you are not the only one, and even though idiosyncratic monks such as Buddhadasa voice points of view not consistent with the tradition and not consistent with the texts, the truth of the matter is that you cannot truthfully say the Buddhadhamma is without rebirth without seriously qualifying your statement.


Also, you claim that there is no rebirth in Buddhism is not supported by the teachings, given how much of the teachings you have simply ignored


This has been discussed at great length in this thread already so i wont try to support my view again
Except you simply ignored texts that were presented to you that showed rebirth in terms of the Four Noble Truths and paticcasamuppada, which you said did not exist, and you ignored them, did not at all reply to them
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 18372
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Location: Turtle Island

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby cooran » Fri Jun 12, 2009 6:12 am

Hello all,

I found this quite interesting:
Reincarnation is Now a Scientifically Acceptable Phenomenon - by Dr. Granville Dharmawardena, University of Colombo
in a Set of articles collected by Bhikku Bodhi researching Buddhist assumptions on reincarnation, scientific evidence supporting this and related subjects.
http://www.beyondthenet.net/dhamma/reinc.htm

metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
User avatar
cooran
 
Posts: 7059
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:32 pm
Location: Queensland, Australia

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Guy » Fri Jun 12, 2009 6:17 am

clw_uk wrote:
Guy wrote:
clw_uk wrote:I dont do that, as i said i have an agnostic attitude. However based on probability my current thinking is leaning more towards a no than a yes (only slightly however)


Where are you getting these probabilities from?



The main one is i dont really see what can continue


It is the stream of consciousness that continues. Yes, consciousness is impermanent but on the other hand there is a continuum. This can be noticed in this very life. There are different levels of consciousness, different objects to be conscious of, different ways in which consciousness operates but even though none of these instances of consciousness are static, unchanging or permanent one "mind moment" can have a residual effect to the next and the different kinds of consciousness can and do influence each other. If you can understand this then it's not such a problem to see that rebirth is a possibility even though anatta and anicca are true.

With Metta,

Guy
Four types of letting go:

1) Giving; expecting nothing back in return
2) Throwing things away
3) Contentment; wanting to be here, not wanting to be anywhere else
4) "Teflon Mind"; having a mind which doesn't accumulate things

- Ajahn Brahm
User avatar
Guy
 
Posts: 762
Joined: Fri May 22, 2009 4:05 am
Location: Perth, Western Australia

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby zavk » Fri Jun 12, 2009 6:23 am

Chris wrote:Hello all,

I found this quite interesting:
Reincarnation is Now a Scientifically Acceptable Phenomenon - by Dr. Granville Dharmawardena, University of Colombo
in a Set of articles collected by Bhikku Bodhi researching Buddhist assumptions on reincarnation, scientific evidence supporting this and related subjects.
http://www.beyondthenet.net/dhamma/reinc.htm

metta
Chris

Hmmm.... I wonder what Dawkins et al. would make of this? Perhaps, it's time for a new book and more documentaries. :tongue:
With metta,
zavk
User avatar
zavk
 
Posts: 1158
Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2009 12:04 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby atulo » Fri Jun 12, 2009 7:43 am

:oops:
User avatar
atulo
 
Posts: 37
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 6:22 pm

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Thu Jun 18, 2009 5:09 pm

Hey everyone

Before i left i wanted to answer the posts made to me here


It is the stream of consciousness that continues. Yes, consciousness is impermanent but on the other hand there is a continuum. This can be noticed in this very life. There are different levels of consciousness, different objects to be conscious of, different ways in which consciousness operates but even though none of these instances of consciousness are static, unchanging or permanent one "mind moment" can have a residual effect to the next and the different kinds of consciousness can and do influence each other. If you can understand this then it's not such a problem to see that rebirth is a possibility even though anatta and anicca are true.

With Metta,

Guy


although this doesnt disprove rebirth as part of Buddhadhamma, the Buddha never said anything life this in the suttas themselves. This mostly comes from later ideas/abhidhamma (of course if you accept the abhidhamma as coming from the buddha then your above post is in line with him :) )


To Ben and Tilt

In some posts way back i put forward my points (using suttas) of why rebirth p.m. is not in the buddhadhamma. If i had seen your response a few days ago i would have posted all sorts of suttas and made points to argue with you but i dont feel the need to do that anymore since these arguments distract from contemplating the present moment. I have now decided to stop arguing for or against rebirth p.m. and have decided instead to follow the advice of Ajahn Sumedho (something i should have stayed with) since i agree with him that rebirth p.m. is speculative and conceptual and its more useful to put rebirth etc into practical terms which allows one to focus on and understand the here and now, the only place where Dhamma can be known and the deathless can be reached

I very much agree with these teachings of his

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=TqKb ... t&resnum=3

and

http://www.amaravati.org/abm/english/do ... kamma.html

and

The only thing that’s certain about the future—the death of the body—is something we try to ignore. Just thinking about the word death stops the mind, doesn’t it? It does for me. It’s not particularly polite or politically correct to speak of death in casual conversation. What is death? What will happen when I die? Not knowing upsets us. But it is unknown, isn’t it? We don’t know what will happen when the body dies.We have various theories—like reincarnation or being rewarded by a better rebirth or being punished by a worse birth. Some people speculate that once you’ve attained human birth, you may still be reborn as a lower creature. And then there’s the school that says no, once you’ve taken birth in the human form, then you cannot be reborn as a lower creature. Or the belief in oblivion—once you’re dead, you’re dead. That’s it. Nothing left. Finito. The truth of the matter is that nobody really knows. So we often just ignore it or suppress it.

But this is all happening in the now. We’re thinking of the concept of death in the present. The way the word death affects consciousness is like this. This is knowing not knowing in the now. It’s not trying to prove any theory. It’s knowing: the breath is like this; the body like this; the moods and mental states are like this. This is developing the path. Saying “like this” is just a way of reminding oneself to see this moment as it is rather than to be caught in some idea that we’ve got to do something or find something or control something or get rid of something.

Developing the path, cultivating bhavana is not only formal meditation that we can only do at a certain place, under certain conditions, with certain teachers. That’s just another view we’re creating in the present. Observe how you practice in daily life—at home, with your family, on the job. The word bhavana means being aware of the mind wherever you are in the present moment. I can give you advice about developing sitting meditation—so many minutes every morning and every evening—which is certainly to be considered. It’s useful to develop discipline, to take some time in your daily life to stop your activities, the momentum of duties, the responsibilities and habits. But what I’ve found to really help me the most has been to reflect and pay attention to the here and now.


http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Books ... nd_Now.htm

In conclusion ive decided to follow and learn from Ajahn Sumedho, im not going to argue about rebirth or no rebirth post mortem any more, its to speculative and distracting, both sides of the argument are. The present moment is all there is. As Ajahn Anando said on my retreat,

the past and future dont exist only the present moment does, have you ever known anything that isnt the present moment?"


and full awareness of the present moment is the way to understand Dhamma, quench dukkha and reach the deathless and so thats what im going to focus on from now on, not speculative arguments about past or future which can cause distraction from pure awareness of the present moment

Now is the knowing :)

Metta guy, tilt and ben
Open your mind and see, open your mind and rise. Shine the light of wisdom and see, don't wait till the end of time.
User avatar
clw_uk
 
Posts: 3284
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales, United Kingdom

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Jun 18, 2009 8:00 pm

That is all very nice, but you still have distorted the Dhamma in a very serious manner with your groundless assertions and text twisting and your ignoring texts that very directly contradict your claim that that there are not texts that do not discuss rebirth in conjunction with paticcasamuppada and the Four Noble Truths. As Trungpa would say: Good luck to you, sir.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 18372
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Location: Turtle Island

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby BlackBird » Tue Jun 23, 2009 9:08 pm

If conviction in suffering is made strong then faith will grow. When faith grows strong, speculation and interpretation will disintegrate.
In the end there is only Dhamma.

With metta
Jack.
"And so, because this Teaching is so different from what Westerners are accustomed to, they will try to adapt the Teaching to their own framework. What they need to learn to do is not to adapt the Teaching to their own point of view but to adapt their own point of view to the Teaching. This is called saddhá, or faith, and it means giving oneself to the Teaching even if the Teaching is contrary to one’s own preconceived notions of the way things are."- Ven Bodhesako

Nanavira Thera's teachings - An existential approach to the Dhamma | Ven. Bodhesako's essay on anicca
User avatar
BlackBird
 
Posts: 1815
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 12:07 pm
Location: New Zealand

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby nathan » Fri Jul 03, 2009 5:38 pm

21 pages now? Hilarious. I'm so glad I quit back on page five or something like that. Let me see if I can guess what the last 15 pages contain, since, to be sure, I'm not going to read them. Some considerable disagreement, predominantly under conditions of mutual ignorance of whatever the actualities of the situation in fact are? If that's true, it doesn't mean I'm psychic, only that I've read a couple of other threads like this on the net. See you all later, maybe page 121.
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}
nathan
 
Posts: 692
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2009 3:11 am

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jul 03, 2009 6:38 pm

nathan wrote:21 pages now? Hilarious. I'm so glad I quit back on page five or something like that. Let me see if I can guess what the last 15 pages contain, since, to be sure, I'm not going to read them. Some considerable disagreement, predominantly under conditions of mutual ignorance of whatever the actualities of the situation in fact are? If that's true, it doesn't mean I'm psychic, only that I've read a couple of other threads like this on the net. See you all later, maybe page 121.


Possibly you are correct, but it is like looking in a box and not liking what you see, then assuming every other box contains the same thing, and sight unseen, not liking what in those boxes.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 18372
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Location: Turtle Island

PreviousNext

Return to Open Dhamma

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], cherrytigerbarb, Coyote, Kasina, Majestic-12 [Bot], TheNoBSBuddhist, Unrul3r and 19 guests