the great rebirth debate

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clw_uk
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Mon Aug 18, 2014 1:13 am

"“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule, then the mind is their subject."



Once the mind is empty, the Dhamma is shown :)
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Mon Aug 18, 2014 1:19 am

And where is the Noble Eightfold Path? Where's virtue? Where's right concentration?


That's a tautology, since skilful virtue and concentration are found in the nefp


Yet I feel that isn't the point of your question, so I have to ask what is?
Lost to a world in which I crave no part,
I sit alone and listen to my heart,
Pleased with my little corner of the earth,
Glad that I came--not sorry to depart
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Mon Aug 18, 2014 1:21 am

"He does not [have] recourse to a view at all. In whom there is no inclination to either extreme, for becoming or non-becoming, here or in another existence, for him there does not exist a fixed viewpoint on investigating the doctrines assumed (by others). Concerning the seen, the heard and the cognized he does not form the least notion. That brahmana[2] who does not grasp at a view, with what could he be identified in the world?

"They do not speculate nor pursue (any notion); doctrines are not accepted by them. A (true) brahmana is beyond, does not fall back on views."



:buddha1:
Lost to a world in which I crave no part,
I sit alone and listen to my heart,
Pleased with my little corner of the earth,
Glad that I came--not sorry to depart
Richard Le Gallienne

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Mon Aug 18, 2014 1:25 am

""By & large, Kaccayana, this world is in bondage to attachments, clingings (sustenances), & biases. But one such as this does not get involved with or cling to these attachments, clingings, fixations of awareness, biases, or obsessions; nor is he resolved on 'my self.' He has no uncertainty or doubt that just stress, when arising, is arising; stress, when passing away, is passing away. In this, his knowledge is independent of others. It's to this extent, Kaccayana, that there is right view.

"'Everything exists': That is one extreme. 'Everything doesn't exist': That is a second extreme. Avoiding these two extremes, the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma via the middle: From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering."


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html



See how this ties into the previous suttas?


By seeing how views arise, a follower of the way doesn't take a view point either way of existence or non-existence.


In this lifetime or "another" :)
Lost to a world in which I crave no part,
I sit alone and listen to my heart,
Pleased with my little corner of the earth,
Glad that I came--not sorry to depart
Richard Le Gallienne

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby culaavuso » Mon Aug 18, 2014 1:59 am

clw_uk wrote:I'm pretty sure anathapindika wasn't awakened until death, so at this point he wasn't an arahant, which would seem to shed some sceptical doubt on your assertion.


Anāthapiṇḍika is described in the Vinaya as having attained stream entry upon his first meeting with the Buddha. The story of his death seems to suggest that he did not yet attain arahantship since it is said that he was reborn in the Tusita heaven. This appears to imply that it could be informative to interpret Anāthapiṇḍika's description of the view he has in AN 10.93 as the view of a stream entrant who has abandoned the fetter of views.

Khandhaka 16: Sayanāsana wrote:Now at that time the householder Anāthapiṇḍika was the husband of a sister of a (great) merchant of Rājagaha. Then the householder Anāthapiṇḍika went to Rājagaha on some business or other. At that time the Order with the Awakened One at its head had been invited for the morrow by the (great) merchant of Rājagaha.
...
"Even this sound, householder, is hard to come by in the world, that is to say ‘Awakened One, Awakened One.’ Now would it be possible, householder, at this time to go up and see this Lord, a perfected one, a fully Self-awakened One?”

“This time is not a right time, householder, to go up and see this Lord, a perfected one, a fully Self-awakened One. But now, early Tomorrow you shall go up to see this Lord, a perfected one, a fully Self-awakened One.”

Then the householder Anāthapiṇḍika, thinking: “Early Tomorrow I will go up to see this Lord … fully Self-Awakened One,” lay down with mindfulness (so much) directed to the Awakened One, that he got up three times during the night thinking it was daybreak.
...
Then the Lord talked a progressive talk to the householder Anāthapiṇḍika, that is to say talk on giving, talk on moral habit, talk on heaven, he explained the peril, the vanity, the depravity of pleasures of the senses, the advantage in renouncing (them). When the Lord knew that the mind of the householder Anāthapiṇḍika was ready, malleable, devoid of the hindrances, uplifted, pleased, then he explained to him that teaching on dhamma which the awakened ones have themselves discovered: ill, uprising, stopping, the Way. And as a clean cloth without black specks will easily take dye, even so as he was (sitting) on that very seat, dhamma-vision, dustless, stainless, arose to the householder Anāthapiṇḍika, that “whatever is liable to uprising, all that is liable to stopping.” Then the householder Anāthapiṇḍika, having seen dhamma, attained dhamma, known dhamma, plunged into dhamma, having crossed over doubt, having put away uncertainty, having attained without another’s help to full confidence in the Teacher’s instruction...


MN 143: Anātha­piṇḍik­ovāda Sutta wrote:I am not getting better, venerable sir. I am not comfortable. My severe pains are increasing, not lessening. There are signs of their increasing, and not of their lessening. Extreme forces slice through my head, just as if a strong man were slicing my head open with a sharp sword... Extreme pains have arisen in my head, just as if a strong man were tightening a turban on my head with a tough leather strap... Extreme forces carve up my stomach cavity, just as if an expert butcher or his apprentice were to carve up the stomach cavity of an ox with a sharp butcher's knife... There is an extreme burning in my body, just as if two strong men, seizing a weaker man with their arms, were to roast and broil him over a pit of hot embers. I am not getting better, venerable sir. I am not comfortable. My severe pains are increasing, not lessening. There are signs of their increasing, and not of their lessening.
...
Then Ven. Sariputta and Ven. Ananda, having given this instruction to Anathapindika the householder, got up from their seats and left. Then, not long after they left, Anathapindika the householder died and reappeared in the Tusita heaven.

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Mkoll » Mon Aug 18, 2014 2:05 am

clw_uk wrote:
And where is the Noble Eightfold Path? Where's virtue? Where's right concentration?


That's a tautology, since skilful virtue and concentration are found in the nefp


Yet I feel that isn't the point of your question, so I have to ask what is?

The point is:

Where is right virtue in the practice you describe? Where is right concentration in the practice you describe?

I don't think you should present the practice you've described as a replacement for the Noble Eightfold Path.
Peace,
James

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby chownah » Mon Aug 18, 2014 3:17 pm

Spiny Norman wrote:
chownah wrote:Aloka,
Thanks for the interesting article. When people ask what gets reborn I sometimes answer that it might be dna and the associated genetic machinery.....this article seems to be indicating that this might be worth considering.
chownah


See here for another perspective: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_unconscious

The collective unconscious seems like a type of instinct. There is some evidence that instincts are reborn encoded in dna but I am not knowledgeable in this area. Also, the relatively new field of epigenitics is turning out to be of greater importance than was originally apparent but it is still a very new field and it remains to be seen just how much it can explain.

Instincts as seen in newborn animals are a readily observable occurance which really points to something being reborn.....if you have ever watched a newborn calf stand up and start nursing in an hour or so after birth you can clearly see that it did not learn this after being born.....I think there is genetic coding for this behavior but I have not read about this so it is at this point just my unsupported view.

Of course there is also the possibility that instinct and collective consciousness are reborn through some ghost like non-physical entity but I haven't seen any sort of evidence for this yet. I'd love to see some.....but not unsubstantiated stories of children telling parapsychologist this or that.......maybe evidence for this only arises with highly developed meditation techniques.....I guess.....don't really know.....anyway....a whole lot of what people look to in rebirth can be seen in dna and its associated machinery at least in my view.
chownah

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Lazy_eye » Mon Aug 18, 2014 6:47 pm

Mkoll wrote:Yes, that's why I think it's better to leave dukkha untranslated and just let people know there are different kinds of dukkha (see below). It's similar in English: one word can mean many different things depending upon the context. For example, there are different kinds of what we could describe as pain. There is the pain of stubbing your toe, the pain of losing a loved one, the pain being stressed out about work, etc. There are lots of other ways one could use the one word.


I agree. Because it's such a central term in the Dhamma, I don't think it's unreasonable to leave it untranslated and encourage students to investigate its meaning. That way we get a better understanding of the Dhamma, in addition to an understanding of translation issues. :)

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Mon Aug 18, 2014 9:33 pm

Mkoll wrote:
clw_uk wrote:
And where is the Noble Eightfold Path? Where's virtue? Where's right concentration?


That's a tautology, since skilful virtue and concentration are found in the nefp


Yet I feel that isn't the point of your question, so I have to ask what is?

The point is:

Where is right virtue in the practice you describe? Where is right concentration in the practice you describe?

I don't think you should present the practice you've described as a replacement for the Noble Eightfold Path.



The nefp, when perfected, leads to the abandonment of views
Lost to a world in which I crave no part,
I sit alone and listen to my heart,
Pleased with my little corner of the earth,
Glad that I came--not sorry to depart
Richard Le Gallienne

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby culaavuso » Mon Aug 18, 2014 9:43 pm

clw_uk wrote:The nefp, when perfected, leads to the abandonment of views


MN 117: Mahācattārīsaka Sutta wrote:One makes an effort for the abandoning of wrong view & for entering into right view: This is one's right effort. One is mindful to abandon wrong view & to enter & remain in right view: This is one's right mindfulness.
...
Of those, right view is the forerunner. And how is right view the forerunner? In one of right view, right resolve comes into being. In one of right resolve, right speech comes into being. In one of right speech, right action... In one of right action, right livelihood... In one of right livelihood, right effort... In one of right effort, right mindfulness... In one of right mindfulness, right concentration... In one of right concentration, right knowledge... In one of right knowledge, right release comes into being. Thus the learner is endowed with eight factors, and the arahant with ten.


AN 4.10: Yoga Sutta wrote:And how is there unyoking from views? There is the case where a certain person discerns, as it actually is present, the origination, the passing away, the allure, the drawbacks, & the escape from views. When he discerns, as it actually is present, the origination, the passing away, the allure, the drawbacks, & the escape from views, then — with regard to views — he is not obsessed with view-passion, view-delight, view-attraction, view-infatuation, view-thirst, view-fever, view-fascination, view-craving.

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Mon Aug 18, 2014 10:37 pm

culaavuso wrote:
clw_uk wrote:The nefp, when perfected, leads to the abandonment of views


MN 117: Mahācattārīsaka Sutta wrote:One makes an effort for the abandoning of wrong view & for entering into right view: This is one's right effort. One is mindful to abandon wrong view & to enter & remain in right view: This is one's right mindfulness.
...
Of those, right view is the forerunner. And how is right view the forerunner? In one of right view, right resolve comes into being. In one of right resolve, right speech comes into being. In one of right speech, right action... In one of right action, right livelihood... In one of right livelihood, right effort... In one of right effort, right mindfulness... In one of right mindfulness, right concentration... In one of right concentration, right knowledge... In one of right knowledge, right release comes into being. Thus the learner is endowed with eight factors, and the arahant with ten.


AN 4.10: Yoga Sutta wrote:And how is there unyoking from views? There is the case where a certain person discerns, as it actually is present, the origination, the passing away, the allure, the drawbacks, & the escape from views. When he discerns, as it actually is present, the origination, the passing away, the allure, the drawbacks, & the escape from views, then — with regard to views — he is not obsessed with view-passion, view-delight, view-attraction, view-infatuation, view-thirst, view-fever, view-fascination, view-craving.




:goodpost:
Lost to a world in which I crave no part,
I sit alone and listen to my heart,
Pleased with my little corner of the earth,
Glad that I came--not sorry to depart
Richard Le Gallienne

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Mkoll » Mon Aug 18, 2014 11:21 pm

clw_uk wrote:The nefp, when perfected, leads to the abandonment of views

Right, the Noble Eightfold Path. Not the practice you described.
Peace,
James

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Tue Aug 19, 2014 12:24 am

Mkoll wrote:
clw_uk wrote:The nefp, when perfected, leads to the abandonment of views

Right, the Noble Eightfold Path. Not the practice you described.




And what is right view without taints (blemish, distortion, blurred)?


What is right view without blurry distortions?
Last edited by clw_uk on Tue Aug 19, 2014 1:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
Lost to a world in which I crave no part,
I sit alone and listen to my heart,
Pleased with my little corner of the earth,
Glad that I came--not sorry to depart
Richard Le Gallienne

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Tue Aug 19, 2014 12:29 am

Sorry clw_uk, it's not that easy no matter how much you want it to be so.



Firstly how do you know what I want?

Secondly, it's not that hard, no matter how much you want it to be ;)


Sometimes the most obvious of things skip our attention ;)
Lost to a world in which I crave no part,
I sit alone and listen to my heart,
Pleased with my little corner of the earth,
Glad that I came--not sorry to depart
Richard Le Gallienne

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Mkoll » Tue Aug 19, 2014 1:11 am

clw_uk wrote:
Sorry clw_uk, it's not that easy no matter how much you want it to be so.



Firstly how do you know what I want?

Secondly, it's not that hard, no matter how much you want it to be ;)


Sometimes the most obvious of things skip our attention ;)


What are you trying to say? That you've perfected the Noble Eightfold Path? That you've dropped all clinging to views? And doing so was "not that hard"? That doing so was "obvious"? So I guess there's need to renounce the household life for mendicancy then, if it's "not that hard" and "obvious"?

Please man, spare me this stuff. I would have thought someone who has spent as much time on this forum as you would know better. Being agnostic about rebirth and making sure everybody knows it - fine, that's basically what this thread is for. But having the hubris to say that the liberating path the Buddha taught is "not that hard" and "obvious" is making a caricature out of it as well as those people (monks/nuns and laymen/laywomen) who practice it well.
Peace,
James

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Tue Aug 19, 2014 1:13 am

Mkoll wrote:
clw_uk wrote:
Sorry clw_uk, it's not that easy no matter how much you want it to be so.



Firstly how do you know what I want?

Secondly, it's not that hard, no matter how much you want it to be ;)


Sometimes the most obvious of things skip our attention ;)


What are you trying to say? That you've perfected the Noble Eightfold Path? That you've dropped all clinging to views? And doing so was "not that hard"? That doing so was "obvious"? So I guess there's need to renounce the household life for mendicancy then, if it's "not that hard" and "obvious"?

Please man, spare me this stuff. I would have thought someone who has spent as much time on this forum as you would know better. Being agnostic about rebirth and making sure everybody knows it - fine, that's basically what this thread is for. But having the hubris to say that the liberating path the Buddha taught is "not that hard" and "obvious" is making a caricature out of it as well as those people (monks/nuns and laymen/laywomen) who practice it well.




I'm not saying it's easy, just trying to put a counter weight to your post which implied that Dhamma is on par with quantum mechanics :) the middle way ;)


And please answer my last post :smile:
Lost to a world in which I crave no part,
I sit alone and listen to my heart,
Pleased with my little corner of the earth,
Glad that I came--not sorry to depart
Richard Le Gallienne

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Tue Aug 19, 2014 1:14 am

clw_uk wrote:
Mkoll wrote:
clw_uk wrote:The nefp, when perfected, leads to the abandonment of views

Right, the Noble Eightfold Path. Not the practice you described.




And what is right view without taints (blemish, distortion, blurred)?


What is right view without blurry distortions?
Lost to a world in which I crave no part,
I sit alone and listen to my heart,
Pleased with my little corner of the earth,
Glad that I came--not sorry to depart
Richard Le Gallienne

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Tue Aug 19, 2014 1:20 am

Mkoll wrote:
clw_uk wrote:The nefp, when perfected, leads to the abandonment of views

Right, the Noble Eightfold Path. Not the practice you described.




How did my explanation deviate from the nefp?
Lost to a world in which I crave no part,
I sit alone and listen to my heart,
Pleased with my little corner of the earth,
Glad that I came--not sorry to depart
Richard Le Gallienne

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Tue Aug 19, 2014 1:32 am

I think the Buddha's knowledge of rebirth and kamma is distinctive from the knowledge of other ascetics. The Buddha got the full picture because he got the full knowledge by going all the way to the end. Other ascetics got very far but they eventually stop, thinking they've arrived at the end when they have not. They may have had partial insight into past lives, kamma, and rebirth, but not the complete insight that the Buddha has. Their vision is blurred, the Buddha's is clear.



Yes but what did that knowledge entail?

Was it deep insight into the metaphysical/ultimate nature of the universe?

Or was it deep insight into the workings of the human mind, and the delusions that we follow?

Maybe Occam's razor can help us here?
Lost to a world in which I crave no part,
I sit alone and listen to my heart,
Pleased with my little corner of the earth,
Glad that I came--not sorry to depart
Richard Le Gallienne

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Mkoll » Tue Aug 19, 2014 1:36 am

clw_uk wrote:I'm not saying it's easy, just trying to put a counter weight to your post which implied that Dhamma is on par with quantum mechanics :) the middle way ;)

I never implied anything of the sort. Knowing that Iron Age people mastered the Buddhist Path, your comparison of it with quantum mechanics is laughable. It's a blatant caricature of what I said.

You are saying "it's not that hard". That implies that you've completed the work which, of course, you haven't.

For example, when I say "it's not that hard to change a tire", that implies that I've changed a tire before, which I have. I wouldn't say it if I hadn't because it would be dishonest. Wouldn't you only say that yourself if you'd also changed a tire before? Or would you say "it's not that hard to change a tire" when all you've done is loosened a few nuts?

clw_uk wrote:And please answer my last post :smile:

No, I'm afraid not. We're talking past each other here. I'll probably come back later but I'm done with this conversation for now.
Peace,
James


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