the great rebirth debate

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
chownah
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by chownah »

tiltbillings wrote:
chownah wrote:We should not cling to any view because all views are flawed.
Especially the view that we should not cling to views.
Insight swallows itself up.
chownah
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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings »

chownah wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
chownah wrote:We should not cling to any view because all views are flawed.
Especially the view that we should not cling to views.
Insight swallows itself up.
chownah
{{{burp}}}
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Spiny O'Norman
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Re: OMG! I'm not so special!

Post by Spiny O'Norman »

daverupa wrote:
Spiny O'Norman wrote:Taken as a whole I think the suttas support the view that the goal is both liberation from dukkha ( Nibbana ) and liberation from samsara ( Pari-nibbana ), and that these are 2 sides of the same coin rather than contradictory objectives.

Spiny
SN 56.11 wrote:"Now this, monks, is the noble truth of stress: Birth is stressful, aging is stressful, death is stressful; sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair are stressful; association with the unbeloved is stressful, separation from the loved is stressful, not getting what is wanted is stressful. In short, the five clinging-aggregates are stressful.
:heart:
I did say the suttas "taken as a whole". :smile:

The last quote is interesting, it says "Birth is stressful, aging is stressful, death is stressful". So life is stressful. Human existence is stressful.
Unless we are a Buddha.

Spiny
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Spiny O'Norman
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Spiny O'Norman »

chownah wrote:
reflection wrote:
25. "When, friends, a noble disciple understands birth, the origin of birth, the cessation of birth, and the way leading to the cessation of birth, in that way he is one of right view... and has arrived at this true Dhamma.

26. "And what is birth, what is the origin of birth, what is the cessation of birth, what is the way leading to the cessation of birth? The birth of beings into the various orders of beings, their coming to birth, precipitation [in a womb], generation, manifestation of the aggregates, obtaining the bases for contact — this is called birth. With the arising of being there is the arising of birth. With the cessation of being there is the cessation of birth. The way leading to the cessation of birth is just this Noble Eightfold Path; that is, right view... right concentration.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... 7.html#pt1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
:anjali:
I don't see the word "rebirth" anywhere here....
chownah
But "rebirth" is clearly implied.

As is clear from the quote above, birth arises in dependence on "being" which is defined in the same sutta as follows:
"There are these three kinds of being: sense-sphere being, fine-material being and immaterial being."

So being ( or "becoming" ) is here described as the continuing process of existence in the various realms.
So it's clear that in this context "birth" means the process of repeated births in the various realms, ie rebirth.

Spiny
chownah
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by chownah »

But "rebirth" is clearly implied.
I guess so.....I'm wondering who did the terrible job of writing this sutta that something as important as rebirth would have to be implied.....why didn't they just say rebirth?.....why imply it?......can anyone come up with a reason why the writer would rely on an implication here and why they wouldn't just use the appropriate word?.....any reason at all?.....is the Pali word for "rebirth" really difficult to recite, remember, or transcribe?....I'm not really wanting to argue "rebirth" vs. not....I'm just wondering why the use of implication in a case where it seems at face value that no implication is necessary....
chownah
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reflection
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by reflection »

Because there is no word such as "rebirth" in pali. Notice that in this sutta on dependent origination, the word rebirth itself also is not used, while it clearly describes rebirth (I know some people disagree, but that's a different topic).
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This may be because the buddha and his followers wanted to make clear their idea of rebirth is totally different from the hindu belief of reincarnation that existed at the time.


See also:
There is no word corresponding exactly to the English terms "rebirth", "metempsychosis", "transmigration" or "reincarnation" in the traditional Buddhist languages of Pāli and Sanskrit: the entire process of change from one life to the next is called punarbhava (Sanskrit) or punabbhava (Pāli), literally "becoming again", or more briefly bhava, "becoming", while the state one is born into, the individual process of being born or coming into the world in any way, is referred to simply as "birth" (jāti). The entire universal process that gives rise to this is called saṃsāra.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebirth_(Buddhism" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)
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Spiny O'Norman
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Spiny O'Norman »

chownah wrote:
But "rebirth" is clearly implied.
I guess so.....I'm wondering who did the terrible job of writing this sutta that something as important as rebirth would have to be implied.....why didn't they just say rebirth?.....why imply it?......can anyone come up with a reason why the writer would rely on an implication here and why they wouldn't just use the appropriate word?.....any reason at all?.....
You can view the "birth" nidana either as a one-off "example" of birth arising from the process of being / becoming, or you can view it as a process of repeated births which represent the process of being / becoming. The affect is actually the same.

Given the way the nidanas are described and the order in which they appear, it seems to me they are describing processes rather than one-off events. So for example while the process of ignorance persists, the process of suffering persists.

Spiny
daverupa
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by daverupa »

But paticcasamuppada never contains a thirteenth nidana, "birth --> death --> rebirth". Isn't that interesting?
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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bodom
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by bodom »

daverupa wrote:But paticcasamuppada never contains a thirteenth nidana, "birth --> death --> rebirth".
And yet this thread keeps taking rebirth doesn't it? :tongue:

:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
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Spiny O'Norman
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Spiny O'Norman »

daverupa wrote:But paticcasamuppada never contains a thirteenth nidana, "birth --> death --> rebirth". Isn't that interesting?
If you understand the nidanas as processes rather than events, this isn't a problem.
Descriptions of dukkha invariably include birth and death, so I think it's reasonable to view the birth and death nidanas as representing the process of dukkha.

Spiny
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Spiny O'Norman
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Spiny O'Norman »

bodom wrote:
daverupa wrote:But paticcasamuppada never contains a thirteenth nidana, "birth --> death --> rebirth".
And yet this thread keeps taking rebirth doesn't it? :tongue:

:anjali:
It will until we all see things as they really are... :D

Spiny
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Alex123
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Alex123 »

Some reasons that I believe that belief in rebirth is rational:

1) Any kind of true or false statement must come only from thinking source (the mind)
2) No merely physical material or its combination is a thinking source.
3) Therefore, no true or false statement can ever come from only a physical source.
4) We can say true or false statements.
5) Thus the mind that can say true or false statements does not originate and start from physical source at birth.

Therefore thinking source (mind) traces back indefinitely (saṃsara has no discernible beginning) and primarily dependent on mind.

Same for intention (cetanā) and decision to do good or evil. The first instance of intention is dependent upon previous instances of mind and its accumulated qualities.


IMHO,

With best wishes,

Alex
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reflection
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by reflection »

I think the first premise is wrong. Computers can also make true/false statements. In fact, it's the only thing they can do. :tongue: Also I don't fully agree with the second one.
santa100
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by santa100 »

Actually, a computer could only make true/false statements based on a thinking mind source: the programmer. Without the original OS and algorithms created by humans' mind, it'd remain a useless mass of material. FOr further info., refer to the "Chinese room Thought Experiment" (ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_room" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; )
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Alex123
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Alex123 »

reflection wrote:I think the first premise is wrong. Computers can also make true/false statements. In fact, it's the only thing they can do. :tongue: Also I don't fully agree with the second one.
As Santa100 has correctly said, the reason for computer's (and Artificial Intelligence) existence is because it was made by programmer who has a mind. So it actually strengthens my argument.
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