the great rebirth debate

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby BubbaBuddhist » Mon Dec 05, 2011 6:45 pm

Jhana4 wrote:....... That theory and probably others are less wild than Hindu reincarnation of Buddhist rebirth.


It is? Why?

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Jhana4 » Mon Dec 05, 2011 8:52 pm

Metta-4 wrote:
Jhana4 wrote:....... That theory and probably others are less wild than Hindu reincarnation of Buddhist rebirth.


It is? Why?

M4


because it makes fewer claims to be substantiated.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby ground » Tue Dec 06, 2011 12:02 am

Off topic remark

Jhana4 wrote:... as he realized the mind sees what it or other people train it to see.

This theory may also be applied to explain some vipassana insights

:focus:
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Alex123 » Tue Dec 06, 2011 12:26 am

TMingyur wrote:Off topic remark

Jhana4 wrote:... as he realized the mind sees what it or other people train it to see.

This theory may also be applied to explain some vipassana insights

:focus:


Interesting. Maybe this is why during near death experiences, an atheist meets Uncle George, a Christian seems Virgin Mary or Jesus, some Mahayana Buddhist sees Kwan Yin, and so on.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Gena1480 » Tue Dec 06, 2011 1:13 am

rebirth and death are thought not only by the Buddha but his disciples
by Ven. Kamabhu

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

when a monk has died
his verbal fabrications having been there cease first
his body fabrications cease next
his mental fabrications cease next
his vital force ceases
his heat cease
his faculties are shut down or ceases

and in case a monk is reborn
the formula is used
not been there it arises,having been there it ceases
his faculties having been there, they cease
his faculties not having been there, they arise
his heat not having been there ,it arises
his vital force not having been there,it arises
his mental fabrications having not been there, they arise
his body fabrications having not been there, they arise
his verbal fabrications having not been there, they arise
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby chownah » Tue Dec 06, 2011 1:39 am

Gena1480 wrote:rebirth and death are thought not only by the Buddha but his disciples
by Ven. Kamabhu

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

when a monk has died
his verbal fabrications having been there cease first
his body fabrications cease next
his mental fabrications cease next
his vital force ceases
his heat cease
his faculties are shut down or ceases

and in case a monk is reborn
the formula is used
not been there it arises,having been there it ceases
his faculties having been there, they cease
his faculties not having been there, they arise
his heat not having been there ,it arises
his vital force not having been there,it arises
his mental fabrications having not been there, they arise
his body fabrications having not been there, they arise
his verbal fabrications having not been there, they arise

Gena1480,
I think you have misread the Sutta.....I looked at it and could not find anything about rebirth. It talks about death and the cessation of perception & feeling unless I have missed something somewhere.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby ground » Tue Dec 06, 2011 4:04 am

Alex123 wrote:
TMingyur wrote:Off topic remark

Jhana4 wrote:... as he realized the mind sees what it or other people train it to see.

This theory may also be applied to explain some vipassana insights

:focus:


Interesting. Maybe this is why during near death experiences, an atheist meets Uncle George, a Christian seems Virgin Mary or Jesus, some Mahayana Buddhist sees Kwan Yin, and so on.


BTW:
One may also apply this theory to the present life and all the experiences occuring therein, since after all the "training" mentioned above is nothing but accumulating karma.

Kind regards
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby BubbaBuddhist » Tue Dec 06, 2011 5:05 pm

"I have seen the best minds of my generation destroyed by madness." --Allen Ginsberg, Howl. And this was before the Internet. :tongue:

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Re: OMG! I'm not so special!

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Thu Dec 08, 2011 2:46 pm

daverupa wrote:
chownah wrote:
BlueLotus wrote:But what if there is no rebirth? What if life ends after death? I am still really confused about this

I think that ending rebirth is the goal....isn't it?....for an arahant there is no rebirth...isn't that right? Does this frighten you?....just wondering....
chownah


Ending suffering is the goal. Saying that the goal is ending rebirth is to take one particular explication of suffering (samsara) as total when the first noble truth says a bit more on the matter.


Taken as a whole I think the suttas support the view that the goal is both liberation from dukkha ( Nibbana ) and liberation from samsara ( Pari-nibbana ), and that these are 2 sides of the same coin rather than contradictory objectives.

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Re: OMG! I'm not so special!

Postby daverupa » Thu Dec 08, 2011 4:31 pm

Spiny O'Norman wrote:Taken as a whole I think the suttas support the view that the goal is both liberation from dukkha ( Nibbana ) and liberation from samsara ( Pari-nibbana ), and that these are 2 sides of the same coin rather than contradictory objectives.

Spiny


MN 22 wrote:
Both formerly and now, monks, I declare only stress and the cessation of stress.


SN 38.14 wrote:
"'Stress, stress,' it is said, my friend Sariputta. Which type of stress [are they referring to]?"

"There are these three forms of stressfulness, my friend: the stressfulness of pain, the stressfulness of fabrication, the stressfulness of change. These are the three forms of stressfulness."


SN 56.11 wrote:"Now this, monks, is the noble truth of stress: Birth is stressful, aging is stressful, death is stressful; sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair are stressful; association with the unbeloved is stressful, separation from the loved is stressful, not getting what is wanted is stressful. In short, the five clinging-aggregates are stressful.


:heart:
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Bodhi, Brahm, Thanisarro & Rebirth

Postby reflection » Thu Dec 08, 2011 5:37 pm

Jhana4 wrote:Bhikkhu Bodhi and Thanisarro Bhikku are both Americans. Ajahn Brahm is from the U.K.. All three men are exceptionally intelligent and are very, very, very well educated. Interestingly, despite the western upbringing, the intelligence and the education all 3 have a strong belief in rebirth.

I am legitimately curious as to why that is the case.


I wonder why you are so interested in their personal beliefs, but according to the suttas, stream-enterers have right view and therefore see rebirth as truth. Maybe these guys are at this level, I wouldn't be surprised. But at the very least there must be others who are.

I guess what I want to say is that it doesn't have to be a cultural influence or a silent wish for "something more".
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Re: Bodhi, Brahm, Thanisarro & Rebirth

Postby Alex123 » Thu Dec 08, 2011 6:59 pm

reflection wrote: but according to the suttas, stream-enterers have right view and therefore see rebirth as truth.


Which suttas specifically say that all stream enterers see rebirth as truth?


Thanks,
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby reflection » Thu Dec 08, 2011 7:23 pm

25. "When, friends, a noble disciple understands birth, the origin of birth, the cessation of birth, and the way leading to the cessation of birth, in that way he is one of right view... and has arrived at this true Dhamma.

26. "And what is birth, what is the origin of birth, what is the cessation of birth, what is the way leading to the cessation of birth? The birth of beings into the various orders of beings, their coming to birth, precipitation [in a womb], generation, manifestation of the aggregates, obtaining the bases for contact — this is called birth. With the arising of being there is the arising of birth. With the cessation of being there is the cessation of birth. The way leading to the cessation of birth is just this Noble Eightfold Path; that is, right view... right concentration.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... 7.html#pt1

"Monks, there are these six rewards in realizing the fruit of stream-entry. Which six? One is certain of the true Dhamma. One is not subject to falling back. There is no suffering over what has had a limit placed on it. [1] One is endowed with uncommon knowledge. [2] One rightly sees cause, along with causally-originated phenomena.

"These are the six rewards in realizing the fruit of stream-entry."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
:anjali:
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby daverupa » Thu Dec 08, 2011 7:45 pm

reflection wrote:25. "When, friends, a noble disciple understands birth, the origin of birth, the cessation of birth, and the way leading to the cessation of birth, in that way he is one of right view... and has arrived at this true Dhamma...


9. Saying, "Good, friend," the bhikkhus delighted and rejoiced in the Venerable Sariputta's words. Then they asked him a further question: "But, friend, might there be another way in which a noble disciple is one of right view... and has arrived at this true Dhamma?" — "There might be, friends..."
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby reflection » Thu Dec 08, 2011 7:58 pm

I'm not really sure what you mean with that quote. Anyway, it says "another way", not "another view". What the sutta says, is that if you have noble right view of one thing, you will have noble right view of all things (the "true dhamma"), but you can get there via different ways.


"When, friends, a noble disciple understands the unwholesome, the root of the unwholesome, the wholesome, and the root of the wholesome, in that way he is one of right view, whose view is straight, who has perfect confidence in the Dhamma, and has arrived at this true Dhamma

This is something usually assigned to stream enterers, see also the second sutta I quoted. Ergo, all parts of the Sammaditthi Sutta are describing the view of a stream enterer.


That's why I conclude a stream enterer has to believe in rebirth. It would be impossible to have "perfect confidence in the Dhamma", but not be sure about rebirth/dependent origination.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby daverupa » Thu Dec 08, 2011 8:29 pm

Then, unless one is a sotapanna, one's view of rebirth is likely to be flawed. I'll buy that.

:heart:

Kinda puts the kibosh on the whole thread...
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Dec 08, 2011 8:34 pm

daverupa wrote:Then, unless one is a sotapanna, one's view of rebirth is likely to be flawed. I'll buy that.
One's view about everything is going to be flawed.

Kinda puts the kibosh on the whole thread...
How about the whole forum?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby chownah » Fri Dec 09, 2011 2:28 am

reflection wrote:
25. "When, friends, a noble disciple understands birth, the origin of birth, the cessation of birth, and the way leading to the cessation of birth, in that way he is one of right view... and has arrived at this true Dhamma.

26. "And what is birth, what is the origin of birth, what is the cessation of birth, what is the way leading to the cessation of birth? The birth of beings into the various orders of beings, their coming to birth, precipitation [in a womb], generation, manifestation of the aggregates, obtaining the bases for contact — this is called birth. With the arising of being there is the arising of birth. With the cessation of being there is the cessation of birth. The way leading to the cessation of birth is just this Noble Eightfold Path; that is, right view... right concentration.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... 7.html#pt1

"Monks, there are these six rewards in realizing the fruit of stream-entry. Which six? One is certain of the true Dhamma. One is not subject to falling back. There is no suffering over what has had a limit placed on it. [1] One is endowed with uncommon knowledge. [2] One rightly sees cause, along with causally-originated phenomena.

"These are the six rewards in realizing the fruit of stream-entry."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
:anjali:

I don't see the word "rebirth" anywhere here....
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby chownah » Fri Dec 09, 2011 2:33 am

tiltbillings wrote:One's view about everything is going to be flawed.

Indeed you are correct. In fact I think it is safe to say that all views are inately flawed....there can be no such thing as an unflawed view....this is because they all arise dependent on ignorance as taken from the doctrine of dependent co-arising.....

We should not cling to any view because all views are flawed....I guess.....
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Dec 09, 2011 2:37 am

chownah wrote:We should not cling to any view because all views are flawed.
Especially the view that we should not cling to views.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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