the great rebirth debate

An open and inclusive investigation into Buddhism and spiritual cultivation

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Aloka » Sat Nov 06, 2010 3:18 pm

glimpses of other realms.
These glimpses are enough to make my practice more determined
.

Dear Bhante,

I interpret other realms as different mental states and have discussed this with teachers who have said its ok to do that.

Kind regards,

Aloka
User avatar
Aloka
 
Posts: 3814
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:51 pm

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Sat Nov 06, 2010 3:21 pm

5heaps -thats offtopic. rebirth doesnt refer to just birth of i, it refers to other specific events (ie. the generation of consciousness due to the final moment of consciousness in this life)


No that was a later idea. If Im right it came from Vasubandhu

It was an attempt to try and cram Buddhadhamma into a speculative metaphysical view


Craig - Views about past or future arise via clinging

5heaps - no, as you quoted, "This noble eightfold path is to be developed for direct knowledge".

not all views are negative, otherwise even right view would be negative


Noble Right View results from insight into dukkha and letting go. Its based on non-clinging. Sepculative Views arise via clinging, such as "I am the body, when that goes "I" go and there is nothing"

As I said, Noble Right View non-clinging. It leads out not further into dukkha


"Ananda, a bhikkhu develops right view view, which is based upon seclusion, dispassion, and cessation, maturing in release"


Hence the Buddha-way leads out of all dukkha. Out of all I-making and views


"Whatever has been brought into being, is fabricated, willed, dependently originated, that is inconstant. Whatever is inconstant is stress. Whatever is stress is not me, is not what I am, is not my self. This is the sort of view I have."

"So, householder, whatever has been brought into being, is fabricated, willed, dependently originated, that is inconstant. Whatever is inconstant is stress. You thus adhere to that very stress, submit yourself to that very stress."

"Venerable sirs, whatever has been brought into being, is fabricated, willed, dependently originated, that is inconstant. Whatever is inconstant is stress. Whatever is stress is not me, is not what I am, is not my self. Having seen this well with right discernment as it actually is present, I also discern the higher escape from it as it actually is present."



http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
“The Great Way is not difficult for those who have no preferences. When love and hate are both absent, everything becomes clear and undisguised." Verses on the Faith Mind, Sengcan
User avatar
clw_uk
 
Posts: 3550
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales, United Kingdom

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby bodom » Sat Nov 06, 2010 3:24 pm

If I die in my sleep tonight, and I'm not even a sotapanna much less an arahant, what happens to "my" (so to speak) kamma that has not ripened yet? If it does not condition another existence, what does it do?


Hi Tex

Kamma will produce rebirth.

Venerable Ananda approaches the Master and says, "'Existence, existence' is spoken of, venerable sir. In what way is there existence?" The Buddha replies: "If there were no kamma ripening in the sensory realm, no sense-sphere existence would be discerned. If there where no kamma ripening in the form realm, no form-sphere existence would be discerned. If there were no kamma ripening in the formless realm, no formless-sphere existence would be discerned. Therefore, Ananda, kamma is the field, consciousness the seed, and craving the moisture for beings obstructed by ignorance and fettered by craving to be established in a new realm of existence, either low (sense-sphere), middling (form-sphere), or high (formless-sphere)." - (AN 3.76)
The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice. Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing. Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this - just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle. - Ajahn Chah
User avatar
bodom
 
Posts: 4665
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:18 pm
Location: San Antonio, Texas

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Sat Nov 06, 2010 3:26 pm

Kamma will produce rebirth.



Birth of "I" yes, remember Kamma is just intentional action


Intention arises at contact. If this is ignorant contact then it will lead to birth of "I" in a mental state and will lead to dukkha
“The Great Way is not difficult for those who have no preferences. When love and hate are both absent, everything becomes clear and undisguised." Verses on the Faith Mind, Sengcan
User avatar
clw_uk
 
Posts: 3550
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales, United Kingdom

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Phra Chuntawongso » Sat Nov 06, 2010 3:30 pm

clw_uk wrote:
Hi Spiny.I think the point that Alex123 is trying to make here is that if there is no rebirth(or heaven or hell)the need for practice would not arise for a lot more people than there is now.If we die and that is that then we could all go on living what may be for many a fairly good life.



Hello Bhante


Sure it can spur people onto the path. However the Buddhas teachings are about the reality of dukkha. Putting aside rebirth or not there is dukkha here and now, the quenching of which the Buddha offers

Why suffer even a little bit when you can be free from all of it?


metta

The problem is that many people don't see that they are suffering.Yes they may say that they are not having a good day or a good week but don't see that this is suffering.Not in the sense that we do.
I agree the Buddha does teach we can be free from it all,and yes we can do it in this life,but you try telling someone having a great time(by their understanding)that it is suffering.
You only have to read some of the posts that people put up on forums like this.They want to know what the heck we are talking about when we say having a loving,stable relationship,with 1.8 kids(stats throw up funny stuff)2 SUV's and a 4 bedroom house with a white picket fence around it is suffering.
You know what Lord Buddha meant when he spoke about suffering,but others don't.
They just think were a miserable lot.If I tell some of these people that their partner could die,meet some one new and run off with them,that their children may not want to go to college and get a career they think I'm just a grumpy old man(I'm not really)and projecting problems were they don't exist.
With metta
And crawling on the planets face,some insects called the human race.
Lost in time
Lost in space
And meaning
User avatar
Phra Chuntawongso
 
Posts: 274
Joined: Sun May 02, 2010 11:05 am
Location: Wat SriBoenRuang,Fang,Chiang Mai

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby bodom » Sat Nov 06, 2010 3:37 pm

clw_uk wrote:
Kamma will produce rebirth.



Birth of "I" yes, remember Kamma is just intentional action


Intention arises at contact. If this is ignorant contact then it will lead to birth of "I" in a mental state and will lead to dukkha


Craig you can type and copy and paste suttas until your fingers fall off. I do not agree with your view on rebirth. People interpret this topic differently and that is ok. You are free to give your view as am I. I suggest you let others interpret and practice the Dhamma how they feel comfortable doing so without insisting on your 'view' as being the one and only correct interpretation.

:anjali:
The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice. Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing. Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this - just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle. - Ajahn Chah
User avatar
bodom
 
Posts: 4665
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:18 pm
Location: San Antonio, Texas

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Sat Nov 06, 2010 3:41 pm

The problem is that many people don't see that they are suffering.Yes they may say that they are not having a good day or a good week but don't see that this is suffering.Not in the sense that we do.


Its because they are ignorant of it. Actually you find they are not ignorant of dukkha but what dukkha is

I agree the Buddha does teach we can be free from it all,and yes we can do it in this life,but you try telling someone having a great time(by their understanding)that it is suffering.
You only have to read some of the posts that people put up on forums like this.They want to know what the heck we are talking about when we say having a loving,stable relationship,with 1.8 kids(stats throw up funny stuff)2 SUV's and a 4 bedroom house with a white picket fence around it is suffering.


"If change or alteration would occur in your kids, would that not bring you stress, suffering and despair?"

That is how you teach them of dukkha in relation to family, possesions etc

You know what Lord Buddha meant when he spoke about suffering,but others don't.
They just think were a miserable lot.If I tell some of these people that their partner could die,meet some one new and run off with them,that their children may not want to go to college and get a career they think I'm just a grumpy old man(I'm not really)and projecting problems were they don't exist.


Then thats their misunderstanding. People can only state the Dhamma, if others dont want to listen they wont. Not everyone listened to the Buddha when he was around and he was a great teacher


Dandapani ("Stick-in-hand") the Sakyan, out roaming & rambling for exercise, also went to the Great Wood. Plunging into the Great Wood, he went to where the Blessed One was under the bilva sapling. On arrival, he exchanged courteous greetings with him. After an exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he stood to one side. As he was standing there, he said to the Blessed One, "What is the contemplative's doctrine? What does he proclaim?"

"The sort of doctrine, friend, where one does not keep quarreling with anyone in the cosmos with its devas, Maras, & Brahmas, with its contemplatives & priests, its royalty & commonfolk; the sort [of doctrine] where perceptions no longer obsess the brahman who remains dissociated from sensuality, free from perplexity, his uncertainty cut away, devoid of craving for becoming & non-. Such is my doctrine, such is what I proclaim."

When this was said, Dandapani the Sakyan — shaking his head, wagging his tongue, raising his eyebrows so that his forehead was wrinkled in three furrows — left, leaning on his stick.



http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

metta bhante


:anjali:
“The Great Way is not difficult for those who have no preferences. When love and hate are both absent, everything becomes clear and undisguised." Verses on the Faith Mind, Sengcan
User avatar
clw_uk
 
Posts: 3550
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales, United Kingdom

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Sat Nov 06, 2010 3:42 pm

Craig you can type and copy and paste suttas until your fingers fall off. I do not agree with your view on rebirth. People interpret this topic differently and that is ok. You are free to give your view as am I. I suggest you let others interpret and practice the Dhamma how they feel comfortable doing so without insisting on your 'view' as being the one and only correct interpretation.



Am I telling you to accept it?


Have I ever said that you must accept it?
“The Great Way is not difficult for those who have no preferences. When love and hate are both absent, everything becomes clear and undisguised." Verses on the Faith Mind, Sengcan
User avatar
clw_uk
 
Posts: 3550
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales, United Kingdom

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Phra Chuntawongso » Sat Nov 06, 2010 3:49 pm

Aloka wrote:
glimpses of other realms.
These glimpses are enough to make my practice more determined
.

Dear Bhante,

I interpret other realms as different mental states and have discussed this with teachers who have said its ok to do that.

Kind regards,

Aloka

Absolutely.I agree that you may view them as mental states.This is how I started out.
All I ask is that people don't dismiss out of hand the literal meanings as well.Putting things to one side is often the wisest thing you could do.In fact Buddha advocates such things.We all know that we were not told to believe blindy but to come and see.This is the beauty of buddhism.We are invited and encouraged to question every thing.If at the moment the whole idea of literal rebirth does not sit well for you,I would say set it to one side and continue with your practice.To wrestle with it will only cause confusion and frustration.Not easy to practice in this state of mind.
We all start somewhere.How we get from point A to point B is up to the individual.
I used to be mad on VW camper vans.Anything up to about the 1972 models.I had mates that used to laugh at me because they were never the fastest vehicle on the planet(unless you chucked a porsche engine under one) :jumping: but as I told them,I always got to where I wanted to go,it just took me a little longer.
With metta
And crawling on the planets face,some insects called the human race.
Lost in time
Lost in space
And meaning
User avatar
Phra Chuntawongso
 
Posts: 274
Joined: Sun May 02, 2010 11:05 am
Location: Wat SriBoenRuang,Fang,Chiang Mai

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Aloka » Sat Nov 06, 2010 3:56 pm

Nanadhaja wrote:
Aloka wrote:
glimpses of other realms.
These glimpses are enough to make my practice more determined
.

Dear Bhante,

I interpret other realms as different mental states and have discussed this with teachers who have said its ok to do that.

Kind regards,

Aloka

Absolutely.I agree that you may view them as mental states.This is how I started out.
All I ask is that people don't dismiss out of hand the literal meanings as well.Putting things to one side is often the wisest thing you could do.In fact Buddha advocates such things.We all know that we were not told to believe blindy but to come and see.This is the beauty of buddhism.We are invited and encouraged to question every thing.If at the moment the whole idea of literal rebirth does not sit well for you,I would say set it to one side and continue with your practice.To wrestle with it will only cause confusion and frustration.Not easy to practice in this state of mind.
We all start somewhere.How we get from point A to point B is up to the individual.
I used to be mad on VW camper vans.Anything up to about the 1972 models.I had mates that used to laugh at me because they were never the fastest vehicle on the planet(unless you chucked a porsche engine under one) :jumping: but as I told them,I always got to where I wanted to go,it just took me a little longer.
With metta



Thank you for your kind reply, Bhante .

With metta,

Aloka
User avatar
Aloka
 
Posts: 3814
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:51 pm

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby bodom » Sat Nov 06, 2010 4:07 pm

clw_uk wrote:
Craig you can type and copy and paste suttas until your fingers fall off. I do not agree with your view on rebirth. People interpret this topic differently and that is ok. You are free to give your view as am I. I suggest you let others interpret and practice the Dhamma how they feel comfortable doing so without insisting on your 'view' as being the one and only correct interpretation.



Am I telling you to accept it?


Have I ever said that you must accept it?


You immediately jumped into a post I sent to Tex and proceeded to explain how what I posted should be understood according to "your" view. How am I to take this other than proselytizing? There is no middle way with your interpretation, its either craigs way or the highway.

:anjali:
The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice. Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing. Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this - just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle. - Ajahn Chah
User avatar
bodom
 
Posts: 4665
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:18 pm
Location: San Antonio, Texas

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Nov 06, 2010 6:19 pm

clw_uk wrote:
. Whether we like it or not the question of what happens after death is an issue that the Buddha addressed.


Not so. He started with the problem off dukkha. With his practice he realized that dukkha arises when there is clinging, which leads to birth of "I am" and also leads to all the myriad of views that arise in the world, be it God or rebirth, no rebirth, soul etc
You keep saying stuff like that but for the Buddha, rebirth was not a view. It is how the world functions, which makes all the "view" quotes beside the point.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 20088
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Nov 06, 2010 6:22 pm

clw_uk wrote:
I don't give a rat's patooty is you believe in rebirth or not, nor - for me - is this an issue as to whether or not rebirth is a fact. What is a fact - and what I am arguing here - is that the Buddha taught literal rebirth and I see no validity in trying to deny that.



Which you have yet to prove in light of the various suttas that teach that view points, view stances and all "I" making should be abandoned as they arise from clinging
The point has reperatedly, clearly made, texts have been quoted, etc. You are simply making the point that even the clearest teachings can be badly grasped.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 20088
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Nov 06, 2010 6:28 pm

Aloka wrote:.

Hi Tilt,

As your knowledge of the suttas is more extensive than mine, could you tell me what this means, please?


So too, bhikkhus, those beings are few who, when they pass away from the animal realm, are reborn among human beings. But those beings are more numerous who, when they pass away from the animal realm, are reborn in hell. For what reason? Because bhikkhus, they have not seen the Four Noble Truths. What four?" The noble truth of suffering, the noble truth of the origin of suffering, the noble truth of the cessation of suffering, the noble truth of the way leading to the cessation of suffering.

SN 56.121 (Bodhi translation)
Here is a perfect example of a text that shows that if the anti-rebirthist claim is correct, then the Buddha was a clumsy, inept teacher. Thanks for quoting it. As for what it means, I would take it at face value.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 20088
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Aloka » Sat Nov 06, 2010 8:43 pm

Hi Tilt,

How can animals understand the Four Noble Truths? For me it doesn't show that that the Buddha was an inept teacher - - doesn't it mean in this particular context that the animal realm is a mental state?

.
Last edited by Aloka on Sat Nov 06, 2010 8:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Aloka
 
Posts: 3814
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:51 pm

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Alex123 » Sat Nov 06, 2010 8:43 pm

clw_uk wrote:
If there was one life only, there wouldn't be such a need for practice. Parinibbana would be guaranteed for all (and there would be a super quick shortcut to it), so why practice?



Which is a speculative view of yours that has arisen because of clinging


"If there is no rebirth then there is nothing so ....." and so on


We have also been over the fact that wanting to get rid of dukkha is dukkha



That has nothing to do with speculative views. It is what follows from the assumption of 1 life only.


If parinibbana is guaranteed, then why practice for it?


Now please answer that question.
"dust to dust...."
User avatar
Alex123
 
Posts: 2960
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:32 pm

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Nov 06, 2010 8:52 pm

Aloka wrote:Hi Tilt,

How can animals understand the Four Noble Truths? For me it doesn't show that that the Buddha was an inept teacher - - doesn't it mean in this particular context that the animal realm is a mental state?

.
Which is why pan-Buddhist a human birth is considered so precious and once lost it is hard to regain.

"Monks, suppose that this great earth were totally covered with water, and a man were to toss a yoke with a single hole there. A wind from the east would push it west, a wind from the west would push it east. A wind from the north would push it south, a wind from the south would push it north. And suppose a blind sea-turtle were there. It would come to the surface once every one hundred years. Now what do you think: would that blind sea-turtle, coming to the surface once every one hundred years, stick his neck into the yoke with a single hole?"

"It would be a sheer coincidence, lord, that the blind sea-turtle, coming to the surface once every one hundred years, would stick his neck into the yoke with a single hole."

"It's likewise a sheer coincidence that one obtains the human state. It's likewise a sheer coincidence that a Tathagata, worthy & rightly self-awakened, arises in the world. It's likewise a sheer coincidence that a doctrine & discipline expounded by a Tathagata appears in the world. Now, this human state has been obtained. A Tathagata, worthy & rightly self-awakened, has arisen in the world. A doctrine & discipline expounded by a Tathagata appears in the world.

"Therefore your duty is the contemplation, 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress.' Your duty is the contemplation, 'This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress.'"
- http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
Again, to insist that these texts must be crammed into a figurative only reading is to make the Buddha intro a clumsy, inept teacher.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 20088
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby notself » Sat Nov 06, 2010 8:57 pm

What is reborn? I can't find it discussed anywhere in the suttas. Help me.
Though one may conquer a thousand times a thousand men in battle, yet he is indeed the noblest victor who conquers himself. ---Dhp 103
notself
 
Posts: 134
Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2009 7:49 pm

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Alex123 » Sat Nov 06, 2010 9:11 pm

notself wrote:What is reborn? I can't find it discussed anywhere in the suttas. Help me.



IMHO what is reborn is cause-effect stream of cittas with "I, me, mine" making, and the latent tendencies.
"dust to dust...."
User avatar
Alex123
 
Posts: 2960
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:32 pm

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Aloka » Sat Nov 06, 2010 9:22 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
Again, to insist that these texts must be crammed into a figurative only reading is to make the Buddha intro a clumsy, inept teacher.


I'm not insisting anything, Tilt. I'm wondering if perhaps there are mundane and supramundane teachings (or as expressed in Vajrayana, teachings on a relative and ultimate level)

From the Manorathapūranī:

The Awakened One, best of speakers,
Spoke two kinds of truths:
The conventional and the ultimate.
A third truth does not obtain.

Therein:
The speech wherewith the world converses is true
On account of its being agreed upon by the world.
The speech which describes what is ultimate is also true,
Through characterizing dhammas as they really are.

Therefore, being skilled in common usage,
False speech does not arise in the Teacher,
Who is Lord of the World,
When he speaks according to conventions.
(Mn. i. 95)


I've got the Pali for that somewhere too - but as I don't understand Pali I'm just quoting the English.
User avatar
Aloka
 
Posts: 3814
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:51 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Open Dhamma

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 9 guests