the great rebirth debate

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Nov 05, 2010 11:12 pm

clw_uk wrote:
Do you deny that

A) Buddha taught that birth is "I"

B) That Views arise via clinging

C) That views are to be abandoned as they are tied with dukkha (and so the Buddha held no views since he was free from dukkha)
However, the Buddha also taught how things are, which includes rebirth, not just the "rebirth" of the "I" and there is not a thing in rebirth as the Buddha taught it that runs counter to anicca, dukkha, anatta or paticcasamuppada. For the Buddha rebirth was not a view.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Fri Nov 05, 2010 11:17 pm

What??? The Buddha most certainly held a view, Right View, and the practice for us is to develop the same Right View, not to abandon all views.



The Buddha taught a view that leads out of all views. The Buddha-way is to abandon everything


Abandoning (the views) he had (previously) held and not taking up (another), he does not seek a support even in knowledge. Among those who dispute he is certainly not one to take sides. He does not [have] recourse to a view at all. In whom there is no inclination to either extreme, for becoming or non-becoming, here or in another existence, for him there does not exist a fixed viewpoint on investigating the doctrines assumed (by others). Concerning the seen, the heard and the cognized he does not form the least notion. That brahmana[2] who does not grasp at a view, with what could he be identified in the world?

[b]"They do not speculate nor pursue (any notion); doctrines are not accepted by them. A (true) brahmana is beyond, does not fall back on views.[/b]
"


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .irel.html




You assertion that he didnt teach the abandonment of views is falsified by these suttas


At Savatthi. "Monks, there are these four floods. Which four? The flood of sensuality, the flood of becoming, the flood of views, & the flood of ignorance. These are the four floods.

"Now, this noble eightfold path is to be developed for direct knowledge of, comprehension of, the total ending of, & the abandoning of these four floods. Which noble eightfold path? There is the case where a monk develops right view dependent on seclusion, dependent on dispassion, dependent on cessation, resulting in letting go. He develops right resolve... right speech... right action... right livelihood... right effort... right mindfulness... right concentration dependent on seclusion, dependent on dispassion, dependent on cessation, resulting in letting go. This noble eightfold path is to be developed for direct knowledge of, for comprehension of, for the total ending of, & for the abandoning of these four floods."



http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
Last edited by clw_uk on Fri Nov 05, 2010 11:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Nov 05, 2010 11:19 pm

clw_uk wrote:
Those dumb smilies pretty much capture the depth of the anti-rebirther argument, which basically boils down to rebirth is "figurative" - it is a "rebirth" of the "I", and everything that even remotely looks like rebirth in the suttas must - absolutely must - fit into that box, and anything else is simply wrong, tainted view. That is the argument, and there is not a thing cogent about it.



Im just shocked that after what must be twenty posts, you think I have not backed up my argument. I have with many suttas and explanations in accordance with those Suttas
The problem is not the suttas that supposedly back up your argument. It is the very assumption itself. Basically, you are pressing these suttas into service to "support" an already drawn conclusion, but the problem is that you have not proved your conclusions and the suttas you quote could just as easily be used to show that rebirth is the caricature you make it out to be.

On the other hand you have just quoted one or two suttas, offered little explanation and have repeatedly fallen back on "I dont like the sound of this because ...." (which btw is just how you view the situation)
I know what I have done, since I am the one doing it. I am simply pointing out that your argument does not hold together. The awakening texts and your response shows that quite clearly. The heavy lifting here is yours to do.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Fri Nov 05, 2010 11:19 pm

However, the Buddha also taught how things are, which includes rebirth, not just the "rebirth" of the "I" and there is not a thing in rebirth as the Buddha taught it that runs counter to anicca, dukkha, anatta or paticcasamuppada. For the Buddha rebirth was not a view.



Accept that

A) Its classed as a tainted view, so its bond with dukkha, buddha wouldnt exp. dukkha so he didnt hold this view (or any)


B) He taught that views arise via clinging. The only path he taught was the way out of all I-making, views and dukkha


birth as "I" falls into this. Rebirth as a deva after death does not
Last edited by clw_uk on Fri Nov 05, 2010 11:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Fri Nov 05, 2010 11:20 pm

I know what I have done, since I am the one doing it. I am simply pointing out that your argument does not hold together. The awakening texts and your response shows that quite clearly. The heavy lifting here is yours to do.



Already done the heavy lifting. Took 30 posts :jumping:
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Aloka » Fri Nov 05, 2010 11:21 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
For the Buddha rebirth was not a view.


You put down people who are neutral or don't believe in rebirth - but apart from the suttas, how are you going to prove it - blind faith?

.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Fri Nov 05, 2010 11:23 pm

I know what I have done, since I am the one doing it.


"I dont like the sound of ..." isnt an argument
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Nov 05, 2010 11:24 pm

clw_uk wrote:
What??? The Buddha most certainly held a view, Right View, and the practice for us is to develop the same Right View, not to abandon all views.



The Buddha taught a view that leads out of all views. The Buddha-way is to abandon everything
Okay, but let us not forget that the Buddha taught that rebirth is what will happen if we do not let go, via insight, of everything. No problem there, but wrongly mistaking wrongly reflecting on rebirth as the only way rebirth must be understood in the Pali suttas is clearly wrongly reflecting, which is the error of the anti-rebirthers.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Fri Nov 05, 2010 11:25 pm

Okay, but let us not forget that the Buddha taught that rebirth is what will happen if we do not let go, via insight, of everything. No problem there, but wrongly mistaking wrongly reflecting on rebirth as the only way rebirth must be understood in the Pali suttas is clearly wrongly reflecting, which is the error of the anti-rebirthers.



I afraid your going to have to decode a little
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Nov 05, 2010 11:28 pm

Aloka wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
For the Buddha rebirth was not a view.


You put down people who are neutral or don't believe in rebirth - but apart from the suttas, how are you going to prove it - blind faith?
I don't give a rat's patooty is you believe in rebirth or not, nor - for me - is this an issue as to whether or not rebirth is a fact. What is a fact - and what I am arguing here - is that the Buddha taught literal rebirth and I see no validity in trying to deny that.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Fri Nov 05, 2010 11:28 pm

Tex wrote:
clw_uk wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Ive noticed that in all these posts you havent addressed any of the quotes I have posted that quite clearly show that

A) Views arise via clinging

B) The Buddha held no views

C) The practice is to abandon all views



What??? The Buddha most certainly held a view, Right View, and the practice for us is to develop the same Right View, not to abandon all views.




There is also this sutta


When this had been said, Anathapindika the householder said to the wanderers, "As for the venerable one who says, 'The cosmos is eternal. Only this is true; anything otherwise is worthless.This is the sort of view I have,' his view arises from his own inappropriate attention or in dependence on the words of another. Now this view has been brought into being, is fabricated, willed, dependently originated. Whatever has been brought into being, is fabricated, willed, dependently originated, that is inconstant. Whatever is inconstant is stress. This venerable one thus adheres to that very stress, submits himself to that very stress." (Similarly for the other positions.)

When this had been said, the wanderers said to Anathapindika the householder, "We have each & every one expounded to you in line with our own positions. Now tell us what views you have."

"Whatever has been brought into being, is fabricated, willed, dependently originated, that is inconstant. Whatever is inconstant is stress. Whatever is stress is not me, is not what I am, is not my self. This is the sort of view I have."

"So, householder, whatever has been brought into being, is fabricated, willed, dependently originated, that is inconstant. Whatever is inconstant is stress. You thus adhere to that very stress, submit yourself to that very stress."

"Venerable sirs, whatever has been brought into being, is fabricated, willed, dependently originated, that is inconstant. Whatever is inconstant is stress. Whatever is stress is not me, is not what I am, is not my self. Having seen this well with right discernment as it actually is present, I also discern the higher escape from it as it actually is present."



This is teaching that

A) Views arise because of clinging

B) The Buddhaway understands this and finds release via non-clinging

C) Non-adherence to views
Last edited by clw_uk on Fri Nov 05, 2010 11:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Fri Nov 05, 2010 11:29 pm

I don't give a rat's patooty is you believe in rebirth or not, nor - for me - is this an issue as to whether or not rebirth is a fact. What is a fact - and what I am arguing here - is that the Buddha taught literal rebirth and I see no validity in trying to deny that.



Which you have yet to prove in light of the various suttas that teach that view points, view stances and all "I" making should be abandoned as they arise from clinging
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Nov 05, 2010 11:32 pm

clw_uk wrote:
Okay, but let us not forget that the Buddha taught that rebirth is what will happen if we do not let go, via insight, of everything. No problem there, but wrongly mistaking wrongly reflecting on rebirth as the only way rebirth must be understood in the Pali suttas is clearly wrongly reflecting, which is the error of the anti-rebirthers.



I afraid your going to have to decode a little


Okay, but let us not forget that the Buddha taught that rebirth is what will happen if we do not let go, via insight, of everything.

No problem there, but wrongly mistaking wrongly reflecting on rebirth as the only way "literal" rebirth must be understood in the Pali suttas is clearly wrongly reflecting, which is the error of the anti-rebirthers.

In other words, anti-rebirthers are making my point about corrupting the Buddha's teachings by wrongly grasping the the "wrongly reflecting" text they like so much to quote.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Fri Nov 05, 2010 11:33 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:
Okay, but let us not forget that the Buddha taught that rebirth is what will happen if we do not let go, via insight, of everything. No problem there, but wrongly mistaking wrongly reflecting on rebirth as the only way rebirth must be understood in the Pali suttas is clearly wrongly reflecting, which is the error of the anti-rebirthers.



I afraid your going to have to decode a little


Okay, but let us not forget that the Buddha taught that rebirth is what will happen if we do not let go, via insight, of everything.

No problem there, but wrongly mistaking wrongly reflecting on rebirth as the only way "literal" rebirth must be understood in the Pali suttas is clearly wrongly reflecting, which is the error of the anti-rebirthers.

In other words, anti-rebirthers are making my point about corrupting the Buddha's teachings by wrongly grasping the the "wrongly reflecting" text they like so much to quote.



How is it wrongly grasping?
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Nov 05, 2010 11:35 pm

clw_uk wrote:
I don't give a rat's patooty is you believe in rebirth or not, nor - for me - is this an issue as to whether or not rebirth is a fact. What is a fact - and what I am arguing here - is that the Buddha taught literal rebirth and I see no validity in trying to deny that.



Which you have yet to prove in light of the various suttas that teach that view points, view stances and all "I" making should be abandoned as they arise from clinging
I am not saying they should be abandoned. I am say that they do not constitute the only way every mention of rebirth must be understood, which something you claim, but have not even come near to proving.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Tex » Fri Nov 05, 2010 11:36 pm

clw_uk wrote:
This is teaching that

A) Views arise because of clinging

B) The Buddhaway understands this and finds release via non-clinging

C) Non-adherence to views



A) Does Right View arise because of clinging?

B) The "Buddhaway" understands clinging, sure, but it finds release via development of the Noble Eightfold Path, which includes Right View as perhaps its most important component. No one finds release by just abandoning views altogether.

C) Not clinging to views does not mean that you do not have any views.
Last edited by Tex on Fri Nov 05, 2010 11:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Fri Nov 05, 2010 11:36 pm

I am not saying they should be abandoned. I am say that they do not constitute the only way every mention of rebirth must be understood, which something you claim, but have not even come near to proving.



So you agree that the view of "Rebirth as a deva" should be abandoned? i.e. have no view of it?
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Nov 05, 2010 11:39 pm

clw_uk wrote:teachings by wrongly grasping the the "wrongly reflecting" text they like so much to quote.



How is it wrongly grasping?[/quote]The text in question is clearly talking about reflecting on past, present and future in terms of "I", which is hardly a basis for rejecting rebirth as being literal, but it is a basis for seeing the reflecting in terms of "I" as a problem. This pretty basic Dhamma.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Nov 05, 2010 11:40 pm

clw_uk wrote:
I am not saying they should be abandoned. I am say that they do not constitute the only way every mention of rebirth must be understood, which something you claim, but have not even come near to proving.



So you agree that the view of "Rebirth as a deva" should be abandoned? i.e. have no view of it?
Put that into is textual context and I'll happily deal with it.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Aloka » Fri Nov 05, 2010 11:52 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
Aloka wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
For the Buddha rebirth was not a view.


You put down people who are neutral or don't believe in rebirth - but apart from the suttas, how are you going to prove it - blind faith?
I don't give a rat's patooty is you believe in rebirth or not, nor - for me - is this an issue as to whether or not rebirth is a fact. What is a fact - and what I am arguing here - is that the Buddha taught literal rebirth and I see no validity in trying to deny that.


My own position is neutral - and I don't give a rats patooty in general (whatever a patooty is) ...and luckily there are living Theravada teachers who say that to practice Dhamma it doesn't matter if one believes in rebirth or not.

These threads get sooo heavy - and its really not necessary ! :meditate:

Nearly bedtime in my part of the world. Goodnight .
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