the great rebirth debate

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings »

clw_uk wrote:
I edited it in, that's why it is bracketed, like [sense] also was edited in by the translator to clarify.

So you put your own spin on the sutta

:thinking:
As do you.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 22410
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales

Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:
I edited it in, that's why it is bracketed, like [sense] also was edited in by the translator to clarify.

So you put your own spin on the sutta

:thinking:
As do you.

Do we all?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
User avatar
reflection
Posts: 1116
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:27 pm

Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by reflection »

clw_uk wrote:
I edited it in, that's why it is bracketed, like [sense] also was edited in by the translator to clarify.

So you put your own spin on the sutta

:thinking:
It's just a clarification of a single term, which is clearly bracketed. That's not a spin on the sutta. Also, since it's bracketed, people can leave it aside. So do so if you want to. But to give credit where it is due, it's not mine, it is Ajahn Brahmavamso's clarification which I decided to include, because I think it makes sense in light of the rest of the sutta.
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 22410
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales

Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

reflection wrote:
clw_uk wrote:
I edited it in, that's why it is bracketed, like [sense] also was edited in by the translator to clarify.

So you put your own spin on the sutta

:thinking:
It's just a clarification of a single term, which is clearly bracketed. That's not a spin on the sutta. Also, since it's bracketed, people can leave it aside. So do so if you want to. But to give credit where it is due, it's not mine, it is Ajahn Brahmavamso's clarification which I decided to include.

Then why say you edited it in :/

It's a clarification with a certain interpretation, or spin on it


My point is we all interpret the suttas and have our own spin on them in various ways. The main thing is if we are all aiming for giving rise to understanding in there here and now and abandoning craving in the here and now, then it's all good

As I said before in the end we have to let go of everything, even all view points
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
User avatar
manas
Posts: 2678
Joined: Thu Jul 22, 2010 3:04 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by manas »

If there is total annihilation after death, then both the one who strived, and the one who did not, both have ceased to exist or to enjoy or suffer anything. So the way I see it, we might as well strive, because even if we were to drink in delightful, intense sensual pleasures for our entire lives, party hard and deny ourselves nothing, we would still end up in the same place anyway - absent, non-existent. All of that pleasure, where would it be then? Gone forever. So we might as well frame our lives as though there is literal rebirth, because truthfully most of us don't know for sure, but it would be a hell of a mistake to assume there is not, and then be proved wrong as one is actually dying, finally wishing one had restrained oneself more, and meditated more during one's life. "Alas, if only I had framed my life as though there was literal rebirth, I might have partied less, and renounced more."

metta
:anjali:
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
User avatar
reflection
Posts: 1116
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:27 pm

Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by reflection »

clw_uk wrote: My point is we all interpret the suttas and have our own spin on them in various ways.
Some with more rigorous spins than others. :D (sorry couldn't help making a little joke) ;)
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 22410
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales

Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

manas wrote:If there is total annihilation after death, then both the one who strived, and the one who did not, both have ceased to exist or to enjoy or suffer anything. So the way I see it, we might as well strive, because even if we were to drink in delightful, intense sensual pleasures for our entire lives, party hard and deny ourselves nothing, we would still end up in the same place anyway - absent, non-existent. All of that pleasure, where would it be then? Gone forever. So we might as well frame our lives as though there is literal rebirth, because truthfully most of us don't know for sure, but it would be a hell of a mistake to assume there is not, and then be proved wrong as one is actually dying, finally wishing one had restrained oneself more, and meditated more during one's life. "Alas, if only I had framed my life as though there was literal rebirth, I might have partied less, and renounced more."

metta
:anjali:

That's assuming that if we don't read the suttas in terms of literal rebirth then you hold a view of oblivion after death, which just isn't true

Thats just jumping around with views

For me I don't think about metaphysics in that way i just try to focus attention on the here and now
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 22410
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales

Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

reflection wrote:
clw_uk wrote: My point is we all interpret the suttas and have our own spin on them in various ways.
Some with more rigorous spins than others. :D (sorry couldn't help making a little joke) ;)


:tongue:
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
User avatar
BlackBird
Posts: 2069
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 12:07 pm

Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by BlackBird »

clw_uk wrote: Now your trying to imply I'm an annihilationist, or people who post the same as me are. Why do you assume we are? I have never said I am one, or ever posted anything that is pro-annihilationist
You are. You're not an ariyan and therefore you affirm a self to which is to be annihalated at death. As much as you have constructed this elaborate conceptual framework that denies a self, you're still doing it from the position of a self, you just don't seem to realize it. That is the sad truth of the matter for all of us who remain putthujanas. Unless of course you would like to claim stream entry?

Self view is a lot more complex than people realize.

It cannot be neutralised simply by denial of it, for one cannot escape self view by reflexion.

I say this knowing full well that I too have avijja and wrong view on the grand scale, but at least I have the mundane right view that kamma and rebirth are what guides these 5 khandhas after the breakup of the body.

I still think kamma and rebirth denial is a wholesale butchering of the Buddha's teachings, and can only be undertaken by those who have a conceit to contend that their views and intellect are on par with the Buddha's. They have never submitted to the fact that we as putthujanas are deluded and that avijja is what guides our thinking.

But alas I honestly don't think anything positive could come from a continuation of this discussion between you and I. You've done nothing but answer my post sarcastically, rolling your eyes etc and I would argue with at least some measure of annoyance.

So please let's just agree to disagree Craig, and know that I think you're a top bloke when this business of rebirth is laid aside, and I didn't mean to offend you one bit. You asked for my view and you got it, and yes there were places where I perhaps went a bit overboard - I made it quite clear that I shouldn't have said that people who do not affirm kamma and rebirth are not real buddhists, I even had all the opportunity to remove that passage from my post, but I decided that I should suffer the consequences of having said it in the first place, so I deserve any flak I should cop from that comment, it wasn't fair.

I know perhaps even in this post there will be things I have said that might offend you, and if that's the case then I'm sorry for the offense I might cause. I just feel strongly that the Buddha's teachings are under fire from those who choose to reinterpret something he has been quite categorical about. I mean there are entire suttas dedicated to heaven and hell where the Buddha specifically states:

"Bhikkhus I tell you this not as something I heard from another recluse or brahmin. I tell you this as something that I have actually known, seen, and discovered myself." - MN 129

The above leaves me beyond a shadow of a doubt, that rebirth is literal, and that the Buddha taught it.

So let's leave it there Craig. Know that I like you as a person and I want you to be happy and successful in your endeavours, I'm sorry if I ever came across otherwise :hug:

metta
Jack
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks
chownah
Posts: 9336
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by chownah »

reflection wrote:
"And what is birth? Whatever birth, taking birth, descent (into the mother's womb), coming-to-be, coming-forth, appearance of aggregates, & acquisition of [sense] media of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called birth.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

reflection,
Do you have some information which helped you reach your view that the word descent meant into the mother's womb?

Also, I'm interested in what sense you can make of the list more generally. Do you see it as just being a random list of different views on what birth means?...do you see it as a progression of some sort...etc.....?
chownah
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings »

>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
BlackBird
Posts: 2069
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 12:07 pm

Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by BlackBird »

Out of interest - If the Buddha was here today, is there anyone here that would not bow at his feet thrice, submit and be admonished by him as to their practice and way of life?
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks
User avatar
Aloka
Posts: 7797
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:51 pm

Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Aloka »

BlackBird wrote:Out of interest - If the Buddha was here today, is there anyone here that would not bow at his feet thrice, submit and be admonished by him as to their practice and way of life?
Hi Jack,

Sadly the Buddha isn't here today, he died a very long time ago and lived on the other side of the world in another culture where people communicated in a completely different language to mine.

Is learning from a Dhamma teacher always about submission and being admonished ? I have not experienced this with the living teachers I have spoken to from two different traditions.

Can I ask if you have/have had a living teacher/teachers to discuss your own practice with ?

With metta,

Aloka
User avatar
BlackBird
Posts: 2069
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 12:07 pm

Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by BlackBird »

Aloka wrote:
BlackBird wrote:Out of interest - If the Buddha was here today, is there anyone here that would not bow at his feet thrice, submit and be admonished by him as to their practice and way of life?
Hi Jack,

Sadly the Buddha isn't here today, he died a very long time ago and lived on the other side of the world in another culture where people communicated in a completely different language to mine.
Yes, but happily - This question was posed a hypothetical, meaning you can put aside this fact as it's not really relevant.
Aloka wrote: Is learning from a Dhamma teacher always about submission and being admonished ? I have not experienced this with the living teachers I have spoken to from two different traditions.
Being able to be admonished easily is an important trait according to the Buddha.
Aloka wrote: Can I ask if you have/have had a living teacher/teachers to discuss your own practice with ?

With metta,

Aloka
I have had more than one.

Are you prepared to answer my question as to which camp you would be included in? I know it's a bit of a tangent, but I do have something to lead on with, so I ask that everyone humour me for now and I will elaborate in due time.

with metta
Jack
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks
User avatar
Aloka
Posts: 7797
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:51 pm

Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Aloka »

Are you prepared to answer my question as to which camp you would be included in? I know it's a bit of a tangent, but I do have something to lead on with, so I ask that everyone humour me for now and I will elaborate in due time.
Well of course I would prostrate to the Buddha and listen to what he had to say to me ! However I don't know what you mean about "which camp" and if this is some kind of game, I'm not playing, sorry. Its a lovely morning and I want to go outside to meditate.

Have a good day, Jack.


:anjali:
Last edited by Aloka on Sat Jul 06, 2013 8:28 am, edited 2 times in total.
Post Reply