Most of us don't have any special powers with which to directly see into previous or future existences. Really, the vast majority of us take the notion of rebirth according to kamma on faith (I generally try to live my life as if it were so, despite having no proof whatsoever for it). But I must admit the possibility that this could just be it. We are born, live for some time, and die, and cease to exist after that. That no matter what one does in this lifetime, either good or harmful, that there are no kammic consequences, either positive or negative. That we are just here, some folks enjoy, some suffer, it isn't 'fair' but then does the Universe have to give a toss about 'fairness'? Is this not a notion we humans have constructed ourselves? Why does the Universe have to be 'fair'? We did not create ourselves. We just arise, and pass away again. Why should we expect some kind of Universal Cosmic Order, something which guarantees 'justice' for all the harms others have done to us, etc. Maybe everyone just gets away with everything. It's just a fight for survival, the 'survival of the fittest'. Then we die, and it's all over, for us anyway.
And 'meaning', that other human construction. Why does there have to be any meaning to any of this? Why should there be any purpose? It (life) just darn well is, that's all. That much we know. The rest is of our own making.
I try to live 'as though' there is a law of kamma, with rebirth according to this law. But really, this might not be the case at all.
Please don't just quote reams of suttas at me. Try to reply from your own wisdom, your own heart. Although if it's relevant, of course a sutta quote is good, but I'd prefer to not just see reams and reams of them posted in lieu of someone thinking and speaking for themselves.
the great rebirth debate
What if this one life is all we will ever have?
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
Re: What if this one life is all we will ever have?
So a basic guide for living in a Universe that doesn't give a damn could simply be
1. try to keep safe from people and events that could harm you or your loved ones
2. try to get the best you can for yourself and your loved ones, in order to live safely and happily
3. enjoy whatever pleasures you like, so long as they don't harm anyone
etc...basic stuff like this.
It might all actually be that simple. We might be wearing ourselves out and overthinking things, possibly. Who knows for sure?
1. try to keep safe from people and events that could harm you or your loved ones
2. try to get the best you can for yourself and your loved ones, in order to live safely and happily
3. enjoy whatever pleasures you like, so long as they don't harm anyone
etc...basic stuff like this.
It might all actually be that simple. We might be wearing ourselves out and overthinking things, possibly. Who knows for sure?
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
Re: What if this one life is all we will ever have?
Hi, manas,
I don't know if this will help but here goes:
I think that any idea "universal justice" is a hangover from Christianity - we remove God from our picture but somehow feel there can be no law and order in the universe with a law-giver so we depersonalise him/it as some kind of invisible arbitrator/cop. Really, though, there is no "moral law" as such. What we have instead are causes and consequences - which we can call kamma or dependent origination or plain old cause-and-effect, depending on whether we are Buddhist or rationalist (or both ).
And cause and effect are at least as effective at rewarding and punishing us as a non-existent law-giver. If we (generally) do good stuff, good stuff (generally) happens to us - and the same goes for bad stuff. The Dhammapada begins by saying so and the point is reiterated through the suttas ... I'm sure you're familiar with some appropriate quotes.
And that is true whether we have only one life or hundreds of them. As an explanatory idea, the "many-lives" theory is useful mainly in accounting for cases where consequences don't appear to match causes, where life doesn't seem fair or divine justice seems to have failed. In practice, however, consequences mostly follow causes quite quickly, and the results of our actions come back to us within minutes, days or years.
So does it really matter whether we have one life or many? Not to me. The one I've got is all I know about for sure, and I have been given good guidance for making the best possible use of it.
And if I live a good life and rebirth (or heaven) is what happens afterwards, I have been promised a good afterlife, so that's a win-win scenario. That argument is a good one. It is known in Christian circles as Pascal's Wager http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Pascal's_wager but the Buddha got there first, with the Apannaka Sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html.
Kim
I don't know if this will help but here goes:
I think that any idea "universal justice" is a hangover from Christianity - we remove God from our picture but somehow feel there can be no law and order in the universe with a law-giver so we depersonalise him/it as some kind of invisible arbitrator/cop. Really, though, there is no "moral law" as such. What we have instead are causes and consequences - which we can call kamma or dependent origination or plain old cause-and-effect, depending on whether we are Buddhist or rationalist (or both ).
And cause and effect are at least as effective at rewarding and punishing us as a non-existent law-giver. If we (generally) do good stuff, good stuff (generally) happens to us - and the same goes for bad stuff. The Dhammapada begins by saying so and the point is reiterated through the suttas ... I'm sure you're familiar with some appropriate quotes.
And that is true whether we have only one life or hundreds of them. As an explanatory idea, the "many-lives" theory is useful mainly in accounting for cases where consequences don't appear to match causes, where life doesn't seem fair or divine justice seems to have failed. In practice, however, consequences mostly follow causes quite quickly, and the results of our actions come back to us within minutes, days or years.
So does it really matter whether we have one life or many? Not to me. The one I've got is all I know about for sure, and I have been given good guidance for making the best possible use of it.
And if I live a good life and rebirth (or heaven) is what happens afterwards, I have been promised a good afterlife, so that's a win-win scenario. That argument is a good one. It is known in Christian circles as Pascal's Wager http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Pascal's_wager but the Buddha got there first, with the Apannaka Sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html.
Kim
Re: What if this one life is all we will ever have?
>>>>>>>>>>The fifth hindrance<<<<<<<<<<
No intention to offend but that's what my worldling wisdom says.
Also, do you see a thread of nihilism and/or eel-wriggling (see DN 1) in your line of thought? Most likely your gut reaction will be "no" but try this: read over what you wrote as though someone else you know nothing about wrote it.
EDIT: oops, Kim posted before I did. The arrow is supposed to be pointing to the OP.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Re: What if this one life is all we will ever have?
Thank you for your reply, which I found helpful, just wondering about this one sentence...I mean, I don't perceive this. I see plenty of mean, rude people who seem pretty happy. They go around hurting others, and don't feel remorse. I don't see any consequence coming to them in the near future. Maybe one day, someone they hurt might be in a position to avenge themselves, maybe, but otherwise?Kim OHara wrote:In practice, however, consequences mostly follow causes quite quickly, and the results of our actions come back to us within minutes, days or years.
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
Re: What if this one life is all we will ever have?
Briefly:
I. Either this life is it, or there is some sort of 'and then'.
II. Either action with individual moral relevance & consequence obtains, or it does not ("ethical action").
---
So we have four possibilities:
(1) ethical action + this life and-thens
(2) no ethical action + this life and-thens
(3) ethical action + this life is it
(4) no ethical action + this life is it.
---
As you say, the actual state of affairs throughout the cosmos could be any of these. What's to be done?
Well, ethical action is encompassed by integrous effort, the sixth part of the eightfold path, as well as Sila generally, and without going into details here, I think ethical action is something with benefits that can be seen here & now in the form of mental quietude, peace, equipoise, lack of remorse, minimizing the possibility of fear & worry, the list goes on (an essential aspect, however, is ones ability to recall one's own ethical behavior which leads to joy and calm and so forth - a necessary bit of positive reinforcement, basically). So, I think it's possible to argue against 2 & 4; ethical action can be seen to obtain.
So there's the ethical angle. This is important to tease out, because it's the part of the dilemma here that is actionable. The other part, for some, is an indispensable component of their motivation for ethical action, but the Buddha uses examples of being motivated by shared humanity, or shared suffering generally, so I find that these ideas plus the inherent benefits, above, are sufficient - one need make no reference to metaphysical claims.
AN 3.65
---
Now, your three points reminded me of this:
I. Either this life is it, or there is some sort of 'and then'.
II. Either action with individual moral relevance & consequence obtains, or it does not ("ethical action").
---
So we have four possibilities:
(1) ethical action + this life and-thens
(2) no ethical action + this life and-thens
(3) ethical action + this life is it
(4) no ethical action + this life is it.
---
As you say, the actual state of affairs throughout the cosmos could be any of these. What's to be done?
Well, ethical action is encompassed by integrous effort, the sixth part of the eightfold path, as well as Sila generally, and without going into details here, I think ethical action is something with benefits that can be seen here & now in the form of mental quietude, peace, equipoise, lack of remorse, minimizing the possibility of fear & worry, the list goes on (an essential aspect, however, is ones ability to recall one's own ethical behavior which leads to joy and calm and so forth - a necessary bit of positive reinforcement, basically). So, I think it's possible to argue against 2 & 4; ethical action can be seen to obtain.
So there's the ethical angle. This is important to tease out, because it's the part of the dilemma here that is actionable. The other part, for some, is an indispensable component of their motivation for ethical action, but the Buddha uses examples of being motivated by shared humanity, or shared suffering generally, so I find that these ideas plus the inherent benefits, above, are sufficient - one need make no reference to metaphysical claims.
AN 3.65
---
Now, your three points reminded me of this:
This will become a discussion about the gratification, danger, and escape in the case of sensuality, the trick being to recognize that the gratification, danger, and escape are also able to be seen here & now - one need not make hell-threat.some wiki wrote:Ethical hedonism is the idea that all people have the right to do everything in their power to achieve the greatest amount of pleasure possible to them, assuming that their actions do not infringe on the equal rights of others.
- "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.
"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
Re: What if this one life is all we will ever have?
Why should we not doubt what we read? I'd rather be accused of being too sceptical, rather than too gullible (not implying that you are, just saying).Mkoll wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>The fifth hindrance<<<<<<<<<<
No intention to offend but that's what my worldling wisdom says.
Also, do you see a thread of nihilism and/or eel-wriggling (see DN 1) in your line of thought? Most likely your gut reaction will be "no" but try this: read over what you wrote as though someone else you know nothing about wrote it.
Nihilism...yes I'm feeling a bit Nihilistic today, but it will pass. There's one thing we can be absolutely certain of: everything in this life can be directly observed as being impermanent.
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
Re: What if this one life is all we will ever have?
It says something about Buddhists in general that I can post a somewhat gruffly worded post, and get such helpful replies. Thank you. Just a question, what immediate danger is there is say, an orgasm, or in eating a chocolate bar, that we need 'escape' from?daverupa wrote:This will become a discussion about the gratification, danger, and escape in the case of sensuality, the trick being to recognize that the gratification, danger, and escape are also able to be seen here & now - one need not make hell-threat.some wiki wrote:Ethical hedonism is the idea that all people have the right to do everything in their power to achieve the greatest amount of pleasure possible to them, assuming that their actions do not infringe on the equal rights of others.
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
Re: What if this one life is all we will ever have?
Well, we see the results of our own actions, don't we? But we often don't see the results to others of their actions. If we did, we might see the mean people asking their friends for a loan and being turned down, rude people getting rudeness in return, selfish people's relationships souring and ending, etc.manas wrote:Thank you for your reply, which I found helpful, just wondering about this one sentence...I mean, I don't perceive this. I see plenty of mean, rude people who seem pretty happy. They go around hurting others, and don't feel remorse. I don't see any consequence coming to them in the near future. Maybe one day, someone they hurt might be in a position to avenge themselves, maybe, but otherwise?Kim OHara wrote:In practice, however, consequences mostly follow causes quite quickly, and the results of our actions come back to us within minutes, days or years.
I don't really want you to try this but you can do it as a thought-experiment if you like: spend one day being as mean, rude, nasty, selfish and piggish as you possibly can. Now, how many people will be nice to you the next day? Would you be in a happy place? I don't think so ... and if people aren't nice to you, you can't seen much reason to be nice to them so the poisons (yep, hatred, greed and ignorance) naturally spread through your life.
Kim
Re: What if this one life is all we will ever have?
Do good in body speech and mind, you'll be happier at the very least..
Phil
Phil
Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)
Re: What if this one life is all we will ever have?
We should neither be too skeptical nor too gullible about what we read.manas wrote:Why should we not doubt what we read? I'd rather be accused of being too sceptical, rather than too gullible (not implying that you are, just saying).
[/quote]manas wrote:Nihilism...yes I'm feeling a bit Nihilistic today, but it will pass. There's one thing we can be absolutely certain of: everything in this life can be directly observed as being impermanent.
That's true. I bet you when some time elapses, the reasons for you writing this post will have faded away as well.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Re: What if this one life is all we will ever have?
There doesn't need to be an immediate danger for there to be an immanent danger. With chocolate, the danger would be craving and fixation on that, building fuel for distress at a lack. In this case, the nutriment is essential for life, and so must be engaged with mindfully, to assess wholesome and unwholesome in ones own case.manas wrote:what immediate danger is there is say, an orgasm, or in eating a chocolate bar, that we need 'escape' from?
With orgasm, the nutriment is not essential for life, and so unlike with food, this is a pleasure that can be done away with. Why do so?
Because sensuality is being emphasized in all cases that are unwholesome, a connection and focus on the five senses that cord and bind and prime the mind into having that as a relatively primary goal and orientation. Seeing this in one's own case can take time, but just as with indulging in bed all morning, or eating desserts, or watching television and being on trite social media, so too with orgasm altogether - the velocity it puts in place is away from calm, composed equipoise, away from the states that prevent the arising of craving for sensuality altogether & which lead on to the cessation of having any sensuality bother one at all, pain and pleasure alike.
- "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.
"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
Re: What if this one life is all we will ever have?
Hi Manas
It appears to me that you have no problem of understanding death. (impermanence)
What about birth? Do you have doubt about it?
It appears to me that you have no problem of understanding death. (impermanence)
What about birth? Do you have doubt about it?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Re: What if this one life is all we will ever have?
If there was one-life-only, then there is an easy way to parinibbana.
Re: What if this one life is all we will ever have?
Parinibbana is not nihilism.
I do not to intend to start the good old debate again.
I do not to intend to start the good old debate again.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”